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John Paul Sainthood Nun 'Gentle, Simple' - Comments

js5535's Avatar Comment 1 by js5535

It's a pity that the prayer of a billion Catholics for several years didn't miraculously cure Pope John Paul II of Parkinsons.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:05:00 UTC | #26190

mjwemdee's Avatar Comment 2 by mjwemdee

The stench of piety emanating from this article is making me nauseous.


Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:09:00 UTC | #26191

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 3 by Cook@Tahiti

If you get cured, it's the Lord's grace.

If you don't get cured, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

If you get worse, the Lord is testing your faith.

If medical science makes you better, the Lord gave us reason and should be praised.

If you don't survive the illness, the Lord called you to Him.

If Charles Manson butchered your family, the Lord gave us free will.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:19:00 UTC | #26192

scottishgeologist's Avatar Comment 5 by scottishgeologist

you know, the fundie evangies will dismiss this as a load of "idolatrous, God-dishonouring, satanic, superstitious nonsense" They refer to the Pope as a "man of sin, son of perdition" - they'll quote the Westminster confession, describing him as the Antichrist, they'll back it up with scripture (2 Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.)

And after they've vented this sort of spleen, you'll no doubt get a "catholics all going to hell" just to finish the rant. So there.

This is standard reformed, calvinistic, fundie stuff.

But wait.... they both CANT be right, can they.... at LEAST one of them is wrong. Couldnt be both now could it.... could it....? Surely not....

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:48:00 UTC | #26194

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 6 by Cook@Tahiti

5. Comment #28509 by scottishgeologist

'4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.'

This definition would capture all Christians who, by definition, worship Jesus Christ, son of Mary.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:56:00 UTC | #26196

cheshirecat's Avatar Comment 7 by cheshirecat

"This definition would capture all Christians who, by definition, worship Jesus Christ, son of Mary"

Have you never heard of the trinity. Jesus christ is God you ignorant heathen.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:29:00 UTC | #26204

macronencer's Avatar Comment 8 by macronencer

My only response to this is curiosity. I now find myself wanting to go and research the stats on spontaneous cures...

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:33:00 UTC | #26205

lpetrich's Avatar Comment 9 by lpetrich

Has anyone else noticed how paltry and pathetic these miracles seem like by the standards of the miracles allegedly worked by saints in centuries past like St. Francis Xavier and St. Genevieve? Or the miracles of the Bible?

Where have all the "big" miracles gone? Do miracles have some "shyness effect"?

I recall that David Hume pointed out the rarity of contemporary miracles in his Essay on Miracles 250 years ago -- and it's still true today.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:49:00 UTC | #26208

humanist's Avatar Comment 10 by humanist

so.. Praying to the pope (a false god - something to be killed for) has apparently cured one nun of one disease. Despite the hundreds of thousands of people that the pope killed with his condom ban in Africa, and indeed, around the world, he's still deserving of a sainthood?

By any logical moral compass, I'm a hundred thousand times the better man. I deserve a hundred thousand sainthoods or, I suppose, to be deified ten thousand times. So do you. Unless you're George Bush.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:50:00 UTC | #26215

tom70's Avatar Comment 11 by tom70

medical question for anyone that could tell me. what do you use X-rays for when following parkinsons? especially a big box worth of them. they surely can't tell you much about the limbic system which is where i thought the problem was?

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:05:00 UTC | #26217

ftvt's Avatar Comment 12 by ftvt

If her Parkinson's comes back, do they revoke the sainthood? :-)

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:22:00 UTC | #26219

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 13 by Cook@Tahiti

9. Comment #28523 by lpetrich

>Where have all the "big" miracles gone?

Obviously God couldn't be arsed anymore. He's gone outside for a smoke, and an intern is handling the miracle-requests whilst learning the instruction manual.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:31:00 UTC | #26221

Greywizard's Avatar Comment 14 by Greywizard

Thanks to Rtambree for this wonderfully succinct summary of some common religious claims:

'If you get cured, it's the Lord's grace.

If you don't get cured, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

If you get worse, the Lord is testing your faith.

If medical science makes you better, the Lord gave us reason and should be praised.

If you don't survive the illness, the Lord called you to Him.

If Charles Manson butchered your family, the Lord gave us free will.'

This is great, and worth repeating. Thanks.

In "The Demon-Haunted World" Carl Sagan pointed out that natural remissions of cancer occurred at a fairly fixed rate, and that the rate of remission of those with cancer going to Lourdes was much lower than average (possibly because Lourdes attracts those in extremis). Does anyone know what the remission rate is for people suffering from Parkinsons' Disease?

Perhaps the church could also explain how it could be known that prayers 'to' John Paul II brought about healing for the good sister, and not prayers to God or Jesus or Mary or some other saint. Surely, all prayers on her behalf were not addressed to a dead pope.

There is a funny passage in TGD, as I recall, where Dawkins pokes fun at the idea that John Paul II seemed to know that it was Our Lady of Fatima that deflected the bullet aimed at his heart, and not Our Lady of Guadalupe, or Our Lady of Medjugorje. Perhaps the best response to the kind of idiocy represented in this report is simple old-fashioned mockery.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:49:00 UTC | #26226

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 15 by Cook@Tahiti

I wonder if anyone really believes in prayer, when push comes to shove.

Even religious people call an ambulance when their children get run over on the street.

If they *really* believed, wouldn't they want their loved ones to go to Heaven and be happy, free of all pain, stress and suffering, in perpetual Willy Wonker Land?

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:18:00 UTC | #26237

neander's Avatar Comment 16 by neander

If she was praying why did she get parkinson's in the first place? Maybe prayer would work better if they prayed for something more reliable - like the sun coming up, ot the world turning.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:42:00 UTC | #26250

BaronOchs's Avatar Comment 17 by BaronOchs

With Parkinson's was she thus afflicted, that God thereby might glorify his servant John Paul . . .

who will probably become patron saint of parkinsons sufferers.

What? that's four star religious logic!

Anyhow they want to get him sainted as soon as poss to make it more difficult for catholics to dissent over any of the issues he took a strong stance on like birth control, women priests, married priests abortion and so forth.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:50:00 UTC | #26251

Richard Morgan's Avatar Comment 18 by Richard Morgan

What on earth is the point of publishing this kind of "news" here, of all places? This is just "Business as usual" for the Catholic Church.
I'd be more interested in reading about some atheist miracles.
Here's one to set the ball rolling:
In 2001, after having devoutly NOT prayed for several years, I was miraculously NOT in the vicinity of the AZF factory in Toulouse when it exploded. According to initial studies (though this needs to be verified) a large number of other people (atheists all) were not there either.

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:28:00 UTC | #26260

nick_127's Avatar Comment 19 by nick_127

tom 70 - Parkinsonian disorders can be characterised by a build up of excessive amounts of iron in the brain. This may be one reason why X - rays are taken.

Brushing aside several other possible lines of debunking for a second. One of the main discoveries to come from the new field of research into the psychosomatic effect, is that the dopamine neurotransmitter system is heavily implicated. Parkinson's Disease, put simply, is a dopamine deficieny. If any medical condition was going to be suseptable to being cured by belief, mind over matter, what ever you want to call it, Parkinson's would appear to be the front runner. Wouldn't be my first choice for an explaination for the subject of the article, just a thought.

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:11:00 UTC | #26266

NJS's Avatar Comment 20 by NJS

According to the bible aren't all mental illnesses caused by demonic posession?

Or is that another "metaphor" - ie a biblical fact which when proved to be nonsense becomes a linguistic device the authors didn't know about.

I sometimes find it a shame that doctors are so "dedicated" - I think some people deserve to be told to go away and pray if their "faith" is so much better than science.

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:45:00 UTC | #26271

Corylus's Avatar Comment 21 by Corylus

Isn't it interesting that this is a miraculous, non-scientific 'cure' for a illness that stem cell research might help with??

This quite put me off my cornflakes this morning.

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 01:20:00 UTC | #26273

Oromasdes1978's Avatar Comment 22 by Oromasdes1978

Something in the region of 6 billion people on this planet, don't know how many suffering from Parkinsons but I imagine its a heck of a lot. I imagine the chances of recovery are consistent with the laws of probability, one person prays to her dead pope to cure her and suddenly WOW, its a miracle! I saw on UTube that theres this chap who asks what is the daftest thing they have ever heard in the name of religion, this one has to be high up on the list simply because of the millions of monkeys who are going to wake up this morning and believe it without being put off their cornflakes!

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 01:57:00 UTC | #26274

nickthelight's Avatar Comment 23 by nickthelight

....."The Vatican also requires that a miracle attributed to his intercession be confirmed, before he can be beatified -- the last formal step before possible sainthood".

The last FORMAL step! I'd like very much like to know what the others are, surely they must be empirical as there is apparently a tangible result (at lest for the nun) therefore the scientific and especially the medical community would be very interested!!! Prayer on the NHS- hmmmm. REFORM NOW!

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:23:00 UTC | #26277

eccles's Avatar Comment 24 by eccles

I suppose this Nun had John Paul's direct toll-free phone number: 0410 ("Oh, for one nun")

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:17:00 UTC | #26282

Hugo's Avatar Comment 25 by Hugo

A simple search in Google and the first result was this:

Catholics do not have first dibs on miracle recovery from Parkinson.
I'm not in the medical field but I'm starting to think that Parkinson in some cases just cures itself allowing for miracle scams.

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 05:05:00 UTC | #26301

Gourdboy's Avatar Comment 26 by Gourdboy

How many more beaming pious faces am I going to have to stare at wonderingly now. Pointing to this "news story" as some sort of proof as to the existence of at least some sort of supernatural power. Stare at them I will. Using every ounce of my being to somehow push splinters of reason past the grates of their stupid-grills.

These sort of stories really depress me. Talk about fanning the flames of ingnorance.

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:23:00 UTC | #26324

RickM's Avatar Comment 27 by RickM

I say unto you; whomsoever believeith this bull shit, haveth a screw loose.

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:38:00 UTC | #26329

cerad's Avatar Comment 28 by cerad

Wonder why the soon to be St Johnny hates the millions of people currently suffering from Parkinson's so much that he refuses to cure them? They must be really bad people. Maybe they all ate meat on Friday.

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:18:00 UTC | #26345

GordonHide's Avatar Comment 29 by GordonHide

A bit like having the casino's own security team carry out the investigation to see if the tables are fixed

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:23:00 UTC | #26347

sane1's Avatar Comment 30 by sane1

You know, it is such a shame that the pope didn't cure himself before he died...

Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:09:00 UTC | #26353