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Comment 73 by cholsy

I am sorry, I crossed the line. I realise this is a sensitive subject,

It's not a sensitive subject, Cholsy. You don't have to apologise, here. You're just not allowed to preach or proselytise.

I live and breathe the bible so I can't see myself being disciplined enough not to quote it.

You can quote it. The words of the bible aren't banned here, Cholsy, we've all read it. You just can't quote it as evidence in an argument in the sense that you can't say, 'No, look, it's true, it says so here in chapter and verse.' because that does not make it true, does it?

We - most of us at any rate - come from where you are now. I've no wish for that statement to sound patronising, merely to point out that we're not devils with horns, but normal people who stopped believing in the various gods that we grew up with.

I know it's difficult to understand but I am truly content with the knowledge I've acquired.

I do find it difficult to understand not wanting to gain greater knowledge, I must admit?

On the basis of what I've learnt, I believe in mutual respect, love to conquer evil, truth (believe it or not), taking care of our planet, of treating others better than you would yourself, of peace not war, of a clear purpose to life and of a creator who hates to see us suffer and won't for much longer...

No-one here would argue about most of the above. It's what most, if not all, of us think, here, too.

The argument we would give you is regarding how we ascertain exactly what is truth, and what is not.

Is there a way to achieve a better approximation of the truth than we have at present?

Than we have had in the past?

I feel there is. We owe it to ourselves to at least explore this.

I believe the universe is very old, as is the earth...and that the bible is an amazing book, once you clear the air and start to put the pieces together.

How old do you think the universe is? How old do you think the earth is? These aren't trick questions, Cholsy, just a way of finding out where we stand in order to continue to talk. For example: I believe the bible was written - for the sake of argument - between 2000 & 3000 years ago. I believe the earth is 4.6/7 billion years old. I believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old.

I believe all of the above because science provides me with robust models that show me falsifiable evidence that this is so.

Still, that said, this belief is contingent, conditional, tentative.

I used to believe, like the great Fred Hoyle, that the universe was a 'steady state' universe. I have changed my mind. It is not. I have seen the evidence - the universe is expanding.

This belief itself is contingent, conditional, tentative.

Through this method I have moved towards a close approximation of the truth.

I'm interested in various sources of information, science being one very valuable and fascinating source of information. I'm a nature show junkie and really enjoy the discoveries man has made in how creatures, etc, function and their place in earths systems,

Yeah, me too. We have a great programme here in the UK (I don't know where you're speaking from?) called Spring Watch. It's fab. Half the nation watches it!

the difference being that I attribute their wonder to a creator.

Obviously we differ here. This brings me back to my question earlier: Do you believe in evolution? How did your god go about creating these wondrous creatures, and when?

I'm a good person and greatly content and I see a lot of pain and discontentment in the world and I just want to help which is why I've ended up here. It's been educational, however I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way.

I'm sure you are a good person, Cholsy, and I for one am grateful that you want to help - and that you've ended up here.

Look, sometimes the debate can get a little heated, but it's hardly fisticuffs is it? You can always choose who, or who not, to respond to. This site is a great scientific resource. For example: if you wish to debate a materialist on absolute morality or the evolution/irreducible complexity of the eye, or, dare I say it, free will, then this is the place to come to sharpen your wits.

You don't even have to take part in debates, you can simply search for past threads.

There is nothing to be afraid of here, Cholsy. Nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

We really don't care that much if you rub us up the wrong way - we're all thick skinned and we're all grown-ups - we are all here to learn.

None of us are, or should be, afraid to be wrong.

We should celebrate those moments when we are shown to be wrong - for that is the moment we arrive at a closer approximation of the truth.

So I wish you all the best, sincerely I do.

Thanks for your time, Cholsy.

You're welcome. Thank you Cholsy.


Fri, 01 Jun 2012 15:44:13 UTC | #944995