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← Refuting supernatural

Genericguy's Avatar Jump to comment 165 by Genericguy

Comment 163 by Akaei :

the smallest bit of knowledge to be gained, is that the laws of nature do not work in such a way that would prevent the entity from lifting the rock.

It could be because there are more physical laws than we know or it could be in keeping with known physical laws but applied in some novel way.

Exactly. Some of our laws could also be wrong, or at least not entirely accurate.

Otherwise, the rock would not move. The entity, then, would be complying with the laws of nature. Because of this, there is no interaction, with nature, that the entity could do, that would be considered supernatural. These are the defining qualities of a natural existence.

Or it could be a direct and (for argument's sake) verifiable contradiction of the second law of thermodynamics. It could be a force that is not reproducible using physical means.

"the subjects interaction with nature is proof that the laws of nature do not work in such a way that would prevent it from interacting with nature."

If it is impossible for x to happen, but x happens, then it was in fact not impossible for x to happen. We were just wrong about x...

The second law of thermodynamics would have to be ajusted to comply with this verifiable phenomenon. At the very least, giving exemption to this new force. The new force would be added to the known laws of nature, perhaps as a new type of energy.

This is how we know supernatural events/causes don't leave a trail.

If we assume supernatural influences can only interact with nature is a manner consistent with physical laws then the question becomes: what's supernatural about that? If supernatural influence occurred I would expect a violation of fundamental physical laws. Anything else would be a natural phenomenon.

So if our hypothetical entity were able to lift this rock in a manner that violates fundamental natural laws how could we not call this supernatural? What would be in question is how could we possibly verify it? If the laws of nature do not work in such a way that would prevent the entity from lifting the rock it could be because it can manipulate the laws of nature or it could be because it can break them.

Violations of the natural laws are really just violations of the natural laws as we currently understand them to be. If this entity were to defy nature, we would be back to our impossible, and at the same time, possible paradox. It's not impossible if it happens. It would not have defied nature itself, but just our understanding of nature.

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 04:57:46 UTC | #950019