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← Penn and Teller’s ”Vatican” episode missing: Self-censorship?

Penn and Teller’s ”Vatican” episode missing: Self-censorship? - Comments

Haymaker's Avatar Comment 1 by Haymaker

So watch it on Youtube while you still can. Probably not for much longer?

Tue, 18 May 2010 05:28:00 UTC | #471012

sbeddoesdesign's Avatar Comment 2 by sbeddoesdesign

Thanks for the YT link! I love this show, always have.

The disappearance of the episode from the DVDs doesn't affect me as I can only watch them online (there are no UK DVDs and I watch my DVDs and Blu-Rays on my PS3 which isn't multi-region), but it sucks for everybody else...

Have they done an episode on Scientology yet? This kind of "disappearing episode" with no explanation is usually when it's something lambasting Scientology...

All I can say is at least these guys do it peacefully, with letters and I guess money, rather than threats and bombs like a particular organisation which comes to mind...

Tue, 18 May 2010 08:14:27 UTC | #471044

Lapithes's Avatar Comment 3 by Lapithes

How awful and disheartening. I think the Penn & Teller audience may not be the kind of audience you can do this to and that the show is not the kind of show you can do it with. It is too hypocritical, especially since the show served a purpose as one of few popular supports for unfuzzied thinking in America. If people will become distrustful of it they'll stop watching.

Updated: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:41:14 UTC | #471049

Tiende Landeplage's Avatar Comment 4 by Tiende Landeplage

@sbeddoesdesign

No episode on Scientology. According to wikipedia:

Plans to make an episode focusing on Scientology were believed to have been rejected by Showtime executives to avoid provoking legal action by the Church of Scientology, though Penn later revealed on his radio show that this was not true; instead, he has commented that he has slight interest in dealing with Scientologists despite being critical of their practices. Matt Stone and Trey Parker, friends of Penn and Teller, were motivated by this to create their own long-planned, controversial South Park episode lampooning Scientology, "Trapped in the Closet".

Still, it may be that Penn really means he has slight interest in dealing with all the legal harassment the Scientology people can muster.

Tue, 18 May 2010 10:57:42 UTC | #471078

Tiende Landeplage's Avatar Comment 5 by Tiende Landeplage

@uuaschbaer

Well said. If you can't even trust Penn and Teller anymore...

Penn has hinted that the theme for the final Bullshit episode will be a self-critical "The Bullshit of Bullshit." Perhaps more will be revealed then.

I only hope the duo's long-time residence in Las Vegas hasn't corrupted them!

Tue, 18 May 2010 11:03:10 UTC | #471083

iraszl's Avatar Comment 6 by iraszl

Wow, thanks for the link. :)

Tue, 18 May 2010 12:46:09 UTC | #471098

JQisAwesome's Avatar Comment 7 by JQisAwesome

You shouldn't be allowed to post links to copywritten material, owned by Showtime, that's illegally hosted on Youtube - especially here, linked on the front page of RichardDawkins.net  - how would everyone here like it if I posted "The Greatest Show on Earth" in pdf format so nobody needed to purchase it?

But in this case, I feel I deserve to watch it for free. Why? Because I bought the DVD which said, "The Complete 7th Season" and it didn't contain the Vatican episode. As far as I know, the price wasn't reduced for the missing episode. I bought it, I paid for it, and I'm watching it.

Those links will be gone soon, though. Showtime's parent company will file a copyright claim and they will be instantly removed. Rightfully so. If you didn't pay for content, you shouldn't get to watch it for free.

Tue, 18 May 2010 18:00:25 UTC | #471170

DefenderOfReason!'s Avatar Comment 8 by DefenderOfReason!

Censorship is bullshit!

Tue, 18 May 2010 18:04:25 UTC | #471172

AlphaAndΩmegaman's Avatar Comment 9 by AlphaAndΩmegaman

Not getting stuff for free is bullshit!

Wed, 19 May 2010 00:02:49 UTC | #471261

JQisAwesome's Avatar Comment 10 by JQisAwesome

Comment 9 by AlphaAndΩmegaman
Not getting stuff for free is bullshit!

No, it's not. It's the basis of our entire economy and freeloaders ruin media content for everyone else by erasing the financial demand for it. Something tells me you'll own your own business one day and that juvenile, anarchist attitude will change when people shoplift from YOU.

Wed, 19 May 2010 01:35:34 UTC | #471277

Merco's Avatar Comment 11 by Merco

There is speculation on the various message board that Showtime and P&T have been pressurized or bribed by the Catholic Church to this act of censorship, perhaps with one of those sneaky clauses requiring them to keep quiet about it.

The Vatican told them they would go to hell if they squeel.

Wed, 19 May 2010 03:49:31 UTC | #471289

besleybean's Avatar Comment 12 by besleybean

Possibly felt they couldn't afford an expensive law suit?

Wed, 19 May 2010 06:05:44 UTC | #471316

Carl Sai Baba's Avatar Comment 13 by Carl Sai Baba

The issue has been raised on the official Penn and Teller message board, but there has been no answer.  Penn has kids now.  Maybe he was afraid of a bunch of pedophile priests coming over and raping them.

But seriously, I don't know if Penn/Teller are even aware of it.  I would assume that the DVD creation and sales are part of the rights licensed by P&T to Showtime, so who knows what Showtime might do without telling/asking them.

Wed, 19 May 2010 19:34:41 UTC | #471491

JQisAwesome's Avatar Comment 14 by JQisAwesome

It has become ABUNDANTLY clear that Penn and Teller signed a privacy contract which prevents them from speaking publicly about the banning of the episode.

Because everyone knows that if he could, Penn would be screaming at the top of his lungs about this censorship and how it's all a bunch of... (the title of the show).

Wed, 19 May 2010 19:59:31 UTC | #471496

mark8's Avatar Comment 15 by mark8

How would everyone here like it if I posted "The Greatest Show on Earth" in pdf format so nobody needed to purchase it?

Well the episode isn't available for anyone to buy, which is kind of the whole point of the article. 

No, it's not. It's the basis of our entire economy and freeloaders ruin media content for everyone else by erasing the financial demand for it.

Like the average person erased the financial demand by taping the top forty and sharing their mix tapes etc...?  I remember the day well[!] 

Something tells me you'll own your own business one day and that juvenile, anarchist attitude will change when people shoplift from YOU.

false analogy, your hypothetical shop will lose money from the stolen product.  However in this case, not only does Showtime not sell this particular product (the Vatican ep) but they still own the rights to it and are able to sell it whenever they choose, despite any free viewing or subsequent filesharing of it.

You've fallen for movie and music industry propaganda hook line and sinker.

Wed, 19 May 2010 22:17:38 UTC | #471532

JQisAwesome's Avatar Comment 16 by JQisAwesome

Comment 15 by mark8
Like the average person erased the financial demand by taping the top forty and sharing their mix tapes etc...? I remember the day well

WHAT?!! Talk about "false analogy"! Those people were sharing mix tapes with each other, in person.

Youtube has millions of viewers who search for content. Anyone can find it in an instant! What an incredibly flawed analogy. 

Comment 15 by mark8
Well the episode isn't available for anyone to buy, which is kind of the whole point of the article.
False! You can order Showtime by telephone right now. This episode aired on the network for all its paying viewers - which the Youtube viewers are not!
Comment 15 by mark8
You've fallen for movie and music industry propaganda hook line and sinker.
No, our generation has been facing a huge ethical dilemma over file-sharing for years now and morally lazy slackers write it off as evil, corporate lies. You are watching an expensively-produced show and not paying for it. How do you have a case?!

Thu, 20 May 2010 02:45:31 UTC | #471572

diotallevi's Avatar Comment 17 by diotallevi

I watched this episode a few months back and seem to remember an incredible claim about George Bush granted immunity to  the Pope for all instances of covering up child abuse or some such thing. 

When I read up about the issue (on the internet - that infallible beast) it seemed the claim was an exaggeration if not factually incorrect. Did Bush really grant immunity or did he just adopt the position that the pope has immunity because he is a head of state?

I would guess this is the reason that the episode has been removed, although there are plenty of other criticisms of the catholic church which could have attracted some strong opposition.

Thu, 20 May 2010 02:48:58 UTC | #471574

JQisAwesome's Avatar Comment 18 by JQisAwesome

The episode also made the weird claim that up to 40 PERCENT OF PRIESTS COULD BE GAY (or something to that effect.) It seemed like a pretty bizarre statistic to use. Perhaps the episode had some factual errors and other problems that contributed to the duo pulling it altogether.

You know, Penn has always said that the final episode of Bullshit will be called "The Bullshit of Bullshit" - an episode devoted to rigorously examining their own shows' flaws and biases.

Thu, 20 May 2010 03:14:53 UTC | #471580

sbeddoesdesign's Avatar Comment 19 by sbeddoesdesign

Comment 7 by JQisAwesome
You shouldn't be allowed to post links to copywritten material, owned by Showtime, that's illegally hosted on Youtube
I would normally agree but if there's no way of legally watching it then I can't see how this does any harm, if there's no way of buying it anyway... That's the only time I ever download movies etc. for free, when there's no way of actually owning it in the UK or in some cases worldwide.

Thu, 20 May 2010 09:16:40 UTC | #471632

mark8's Avatar Comment 20 by mark8

Comment 16 by JQisAwesome
Comment 15 by mark8 Like the average person erased the financial demand by taping the top forty and sharing their mix tapes etc...? I remember the day wellWHAT?!! Talk about "false analogy"! Those people were sharing mix tapes with each other, in person.Youtube has millions of viewers who search for content. Anyone can find it in an instant! What an incredibly flawed analogy.

A Harvard study published last year concluded that since 2000 the amount of music available has more than doubled.  Meaning music isn't suffering at all, especially as costs to produce and distribute an album plummet.  Live gigs are at an all time high in attendence records.  So how are these individuals viewing on youtube any different than the mix tape sharers of yore?

  Comment 15 by mark8 Well the episode isn't available for anyone to buy, which is kind of the whole point of the article.False! You can order Showtime by telephone right now. This episode aired on the network for all its paying viewers - which the Youtube viewers are not!

I'm I missing something?  I'm pretty sure that the vatican episode is no longer available.  Or have I got that wrong?  If it isn't, then until they make it available they are NOT losing out monetarily AT ALL. 

Comment 15 by mark8 You've fallen for movie and music industry propaganda hook line and sinker.No, our generation has been facing a huge ethical dilemma over file-sharing for years now and morally lazy slackers write it off as evil, corporate lies. You are watching an expensively-produced show and not paying for it. How do you have a case?!

I watch and listen to a lot of things, I also like tangible objects, so my music collection consisting of Vinyl, CD's and DVD's and torrent downloads is very expansive.  It also includes entire discographies in duplicates across the mediums mentioned.

For eg. I have the entire Iron Maiden and Tool Catalogues on Vinyl, CD's and Mp3's.

In many cases certain artists/filmakers were never ever going to get my money so they've never lost anything.  I watched and heard their stuff and didn't like it.  What I did enjoy makes it into my enormous collection.

The movie and music industry either adapts or dies, my guess is they'll eventually adapt...

Artists like Radiohead, Trent Reznor have/are adapt(ed)ing and their sales have not suffered one iota from practically giving it away.  Well in the case of Reznor he actually did.  Mick Jagger, Liam/Noel Gallagher also realise the absurdity of the industry's stance and people like myself will always buy it.  Those who never would have, still won't - the business model has been broke for a long while now and it's up to the industry to fix it.

Thu, 20 May 2010 09:52:32 UTC | #471638

JQisAwesome's Avatar Comment 21 by JQisAwesome

A Harvard study published last year concluded that since 2000 the amount of music available has more than doubled.  Meaning music isn't suffering at all.

Haha! The amount of GASOLINE increased since 2000 as well. So have the number of cheeseburgers, lipstick, pickup trucks, and heroin. The population increases, human expansion increases - everything increases with time. This trend of music increasing is IN SPITE of the massive theft by file-sharers.

It's just mind-boggling to me how these "freethinking" youngsters can convince themselves they're not stealing when they file-share with strangers through a search engine. You would normally buy it - but instead - you get it free. And it's not stealing? It's such an obvious, concrete example of theft.

I think the inconvenient reality of it makes them so uncomfortable, they desperately perform mental gymnastics to justify the theft. 

Thu, 20 May 2010 19:39:17 UTC | #471804

AlphaAndΩmegaman's Avatar Comment 22 by AlphaAndΩmegaman

Oh, come on!  Yes, downloading Lady Gaga's album for free is illegal, but who gives two shits?  Turn over to MTV and you can see all the poor starving artists struggling to make ends meet, covered in bling and gold, driving the latest pimped out cars. 

It's just like that episode of south park where avaricious musicians lose a fraction of their income from music piracy and have to settle for slightly less luxurious purchases or wait until they can afford the ridiculously luxurious ones.

Thu, 20 May 2010 20:10:22 UTC | #471815

Randy Ping's Avatar Comment 23 by Randy Ping

"Now Lars Ulrich will have to wait an entire WEEK longer to get his gold-plated shark tank! How does that make you feel about downloading songs now? Hmmmm???!"

Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:37:05 UTC | #490916

constantin's Avatar Comment 24 by constantin

for everybody that believes that p&t did not know about the removal don't you think that they could refuse to do the show until the inclusion of the vatican episode on dvd? do you really think that they don't do that because they would be out of work? i believe that people would just love to have p&t present other shows knowing that they did not give in to censorship and they would be respected a lot more for that but it turns out they don't really want that

Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:14:35 UTC | #507377

Dr Doctor's Avatar Comment 25 by Dr Doctor

Does it matter what they did or did not know? In a grown up world there are contracts, companies, legal departments, deadlines and cutting room floors. Anything could be the reason, and not having a political slanging match in public if there is a problem is to their credit.

It might not help those hoping to tune into the latest internet drama, but so what.

Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:04:44 UTC | #507407