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Racism and Religion - Comments

josephor's Avatar Comment 1 by josephor

“Racism originated in the Torah,” said Rabbi Yosef Scheinen, who heads the Ashdod Yeshiva. “The land of Israel is designated for the people of Israel. This is what the Holy One Blessed Be He intended and that is what the [sage] Rashi interpreted.”

I could call this person a bearded bigoted old toad but I'm not going to. The only comment that I can make is where ever faith rules, hate is always close company. I wish this guy would rent out a little space in his head to reason.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:38:46 UTC | #575612

Hendrix is my gOD's Avatar Comment 2 by Hendrix is my gOD

What shocked me is that he proudly proclaimed his religion to be racist. How do you even approach such people?

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:45:15 UTC | #575614

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 3 by Alan4discussion

“The land of Israel is designated for the people of Israel.

This is not new. The Romans encountered this problem!

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:38 UTC | #575619

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 4 by NealOKelly

To be fair, I don't think you can tar Christianity and Islam with the same brush. Both welcome new recruits regardless of race.

Judaism, as I understand it, is unique in combining belief in nonsense with genes.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:43:43 UTC | #575632

lilalindy's Avatar Comment 5 by lilalindy

Comment 4 by NealOKelly

To be fair, I don't think you can tar Christianity and Islam with the same brush. Both welcome new recruits regardless of race.

I find amusing that a lot of Muslims call 'racist' any comment that attacks their religion and yet for that to be the case, when someone converts to Islam, they must change their race. I didn't think that you could change your race. Perhaps Hugh can enlighten us as to how this is possible (maybe using a different meaning of the word 'race' perhaps - we already have different meanings for 'adultery' and 'moderate' ;-)

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:12:08 UTC | #575638

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 6 by NealOKelly

Comment 5 by lilalindy

Comment 4 by NealOKelly

To be fair, I don't think you can tar Christianity and Islam with the same brush. Both welcome new recruits regardless of race.

I find amusing that a lot of Muslims call 'racist' any comment that attacks their religion and yet for that to be the case, when someone converts to Islam, they must change their race. I didn't think that you could change your race. Perhaps Hugh can enlighten us as to how this is possible (maybe using a different meaning of the word 'race' perhaps - we already have different meanings for 'adultery' and 'moderate' ;-)

I suspect it's probably because people often use the word Islam as a proxy for "people with brown skin".

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:18:55 UTC | #575642

Outrider's Avatar Comment 7 by Outrider

I suspect it's probably because people often use the word Islam as a proxy for "people with brown skin".

I thought that was 'Californian'...?

O.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:14:39 UTC | #575656

KJinAsia's Avatar Comment 8 by KJinAsia

Racism didn't start there and then, but it sure got crystallized. And then it got lucky about 900 years later and then again another 300 years later. The Romans were, even by today's standards, not a racist society...until they promoted Christianity.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:25:50 UTC | #575660

lilalindy's Avatar Comment 9 by lilalindy

Comment 6 by NealOKelly

I suspect it's probably because people often use the word Islam as a proxy for "people with brown skin".

Too many white Muslims, brown Hindus, Sikhs and Jains around here for that to be the case.

Interestingly, apart from the white Muslim converts, many non-white Muslim women (head scarf but not tent) look white because they are kept indoors all of the time - they've simply faded like a lot of brown people do when they don't get in the sun very much.

(for any PC fanatics out there, reading this, it is just a statement of fact. I know plenty of (Indian) people who do fade and when they go on holiday - whether it is to India or to normal-for-white-European destinations like Egypt or Mediterranean destinations, come back a lot darker. They also don't have any hang-ups about talking about the colour of their skin - brown people tan as well).

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:40:06 UTC | #575668

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 10 by Schrodinger's Cat

Comment 8 by KJinAsia

The Romans were, even by today's standards, not a racist society

That's a bit like arguing at least the Borg are not racist....while they are busy assimilating you.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:58:53 UTC | #575678

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 11 by Stevehill

The Torah also says God commanded the Israelites to ethnically cleanse the Canaanites, killing their wives, children and livestock, as they had no right to occupy the Promised Land.

In essence, this is West Bank land around Hebron, and some of the Israelites clearly still consider God's injunction to be work-in-progress.

Religion is a fucking stupid basis for a 21st Century government, whether in Israel, Saudi, Pakistan, Sudan, or Sarah Palin's wet dream of what America ought to be like.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:03:13 UTC | #575683

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 12 by NealOKelly

Comment 9 by lilalindy

Too many white Muslims, brown Hindus, Sikhs and Jains around here for that to be the case.

Yes, you're absolutely right. No one ever uses religion as a proxy for race.

Oh... except the BNP for example:

http://www.mysun.co.uk/go/thread/view/88618/26557549/bnp-mosque-demonstration---saturday-jan-8th-2011?post_id=480053657

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:28:54 UTC | #575688

lilalindy's Avatar Comment 13 by lilalindy

Comment 12 by NealOKelly

Yes, you're absolutely right. No one ever uses religion as a proxy for race.

No rational person.

Oh... except the BNP for example:

QED

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 15:17:08 UTC | #575706

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 14 by NealOKelly

Comment 13 by lilalindy

No rational person.

Since when has racism been rational?

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 15:26:06 UTC | #575709

Radesq's Avatar Comment 15 by Radesq

Can you provide a link for this piece please? I would like to find out when being Jewish or even Israeli became of a race. The Rabbi's statement would appear to be wrong in more than one sense.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 15:27:42 UTC | #575710

davidckahn's Avatar Comment 16 by davidckahn

I'm sorry, is someone actually claiming that racism did not exist before the Torah?

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 15:28:25 UTC | #575711

Zelig's Avatar Comment 17 by Zelig

Are we to assume from this that the state actually allows this type of discrimination, or is it being advocated in defiance of the law?

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:20:10 UTC | #575749

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 18 by HughCaldwell

Comment 15 by Radesq I would like to find out when being Jewish or even Israeli became of a race.

If there is no Jewish race, how is anti-Semitism possible? I suggest that as a point for discussion and not as a rhetorical question.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:39:20 UTC | #575758

Radesq's Avatar Comment 19 by Radesq

Point of clarification - I am not affiliated with Hugh Caldwell.

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:53:14 UTC | #575761

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 20 by HughCaldwell

@Comment 19 by Radesq

Is anti-Semitism racist, do you think? If, so does that mean there is a Jewish race?

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 18:00:01 UTC | #575763

keithapm's Avatar Comment 21 by keithapm

Comment 16 by davidckahn

I'm sorry, is someone actually claiming that racism did not exist before the Torah?

Yeah, Rabbi Yosef Scheinen apparently. Rather strange isn't it? Not only is it factually bollox, it's also not very good PR for his religion is it?

Racism is a product of xenophobia, itself a product of ignorance and we've had both knocking about (and they continue to knock about) for as long as we've been human.

Wait hold on, surely YESSPAM isn't taking that fool on his woefully ignorant word? :-)

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:01:39 UTC | #575783

scotsman2010's Avatar Comment 22 by scotsman2010

As a point of fact (not an opinion either way): in the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race. link text

Sun, 09 Jan 2011 23:52:47 UTC | #575888

Radesq's Avatar Comment 23 by Radesq

scotsman - you just couldn't resist the bait eh...now you will have to chew your own leg off to get out of this. It doesn't matter how you answer HC's question - all he wanted was someone to step into it.

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:01:03 UTC | #575891

Dave H's Avatar Comment 24 by Dave H

I would call it an extreme form of boycotting, not racism. Religion is not a strictly race. A race is something you are born with and have no choice about, like the colour of your hair, length of your nose, or who your parents are. Religion is a way of thinking that you can choose to participate in with (or perhaps without) your brain, albeit within certain limitations (like faking it in order to stay alive among your "friends").

If religious people want to participate in extreme boycotting like this they should be careful. What if scientists and engineers decided to only offer their services to people who eschewed the supernatural. You believe the supernatural takes precedence over the real? Right, no electricity for you then. And sorry, no medical attention, take that injury victim to your church instead and pray for them. You don't believe in evolution - not even bacterial evolution? No vaccine for you then. And take those glasses off your face; you're not entitled. Is this really the kind of world that they want to initiate? One with civil war on every level? I'm not sure I want to do your plumbing, sir, it depends on what you think of the Spice Girls.

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:04:44 UTC | #575893

scotsman2010's Avatar Comment 25 by scotsman2010

Comment 23 by Radesq :

scotsman - you just couldn't resist the bait eh...now you will have to chew your own leg off to get out of this. It doesn't matter how you answer HC's question - all he wanted was someone to step into it.

Radesq, I didn't answer the question at all, so nothing to get out of as far as I'm concerned.

I was only pointing out, as a point of historical interest, the US Supreme Court ruling from the 1980s. I note that the Jewish website totally disagrees with it.

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:06:17 UTC | #575895

LuminolBlue's Avatar Comment 26 by LuminolBlue

Wow. Just wow. Like most people on this discussion topic, I am at a loss for words. If I came across this person face-to-face, my initially reaction would probably be to look at him in total and utter confusion. I would then reluctantly shake my head in disbelief and walk away.

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:10:45 UTC | #575898

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 27 by HughCaldwell

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect. from link at Comment 22 by scotsman2010

That's not very conclusive, is it? What was the Supreme Court decision referred to, in any case? If we are to accept this supposed decision that would make the Jewish State a racist state.

In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country. This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home. (Israel's declaration of indepedence)

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:57:39 UTC | #575910

frax71's Avatar Comment 28 by frax71

@ HughCaldwell

Do you believe there is a Jewish race?. If so please point out it's racial characteristics. Please leave out the description of Israeli human rights abuses, I am aware of these and that is not what I am asking you.

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 01:02:35 UTC | #575913

mellifera's Avatar Comment 29 by mellifera

There is no "Jewish race," so it's all a moot point. To quote a Yiddish proverb, "There's no lack of garbage anywhere." This guy is jerk.

If anyone is really worried about the usual definition of race, Israelis had no trouble airlifting the tens of thousands of Ethiopian Jews back in '91. I don't think they're hung up on skin color.

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 01:08:30 UTC | #575915

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 30 by HughCaldwell

the usual definition of race Comment 29 by mellifera

What is it?

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 01:16:08 UTC | #575917