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← How it may have felt during the Inquisition

How it may have felt during the Inquisition - Comments

Lapithes's Avatar Comment 1 by Lapithes

Lovely story. Wish I had been there.

Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:00:56 UTC | #619757

Hammert1me's Avatar Comment 2 by Hammert1me

This may be the strangest thing I have ever thought. What is the deal with ancestor worship? Just becuase someone is old doesn't automatically mean they are a better person than you. Indeed, we are talking about a generation that tolerated homobashing and excluded fallen women. Thier grandparents thought slavery was great idea. If anything, the old should respect the young. They (nomally) turn out better then thier parents.

The human race would have gotten nowhere if people lived forever.

In 10 or 20 years, there are significant number of irrational ancient toddlers we won't have to deal with anymore. Part of me feels compassion, the other looks to the future.

As to your post-traumatic stress, I suggest taking up a martial art. Or seek conselling.

Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:02:05 UTC | #619758

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 3 by Neodarwinian

Sounds as if it would be safer running with the bulls than running with the religious in Spain. I though Spain would be past that sort of thing. I hear some odd things out of the Philippines, and some African countries about religious fervor that can be scarcely credited. But Europe?

Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:46:04 UTC | #619768

Steve Hanson's Avatar Comment 4 by Steve Hanson

Does anyone else watch Stargate SG-1? This reminds me a lot of the religion of Origin. "Hallowed are the Ori!" (of course, the unbelievers are always destroyed, because they must be evil for having rejected said religion).

Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:48:58 UTC | #619771

Pitchguest's Avatar Comment 5 by Pitchguest

In the words of Graham Chapman,

"Bring out!... the comfy chair!" DUN DUN DUUUUN

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 01:30:31 UTC | #619790

Carl Sai Baba's Avatar Comment 6 by Carl Sai Baba

I had a "friend-of-a-friend" who nearly threw a fit on his birthday because I wanted to put ketchup on my potatoes at his favorite hick barbecue joint. I can't imagine what kind of lunatic he would turn into if I didn't want to watch his god crap.

People are dicks when they see others not enjoying the same stuff they like.

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:42:01 UTC | #619824

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 7 by Stevehill

The current Spanish government has done more than probably any European government to put clear blue water between the church and the state (there is quite a lot to do still, the Franco dictatorship, installed by Mussolini and Hitler to overturn a democratic election result, having been the de facto puppet government of the Vatican).

The young Spanish people I know are amongst the most secular people I have encountered, and are genuinely enthused about the rebuilding of democracy in Spain.

These rather pathetic old farts were probably Francoists who benefited from that regime and were used to getting their way regardless of democratic views. Now they feel (rightly and deservedly) marginalised and dispossessed.

The good news is that in a decade or so they will be dead, and there's no younger generation going to replace them. Irony of ironies, the gods they worship won't get resurrected.

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:45:49 UTC | #619825

Cents's Avatar Comment 8 by Cents

Re: Comment 7 by Steve Hill. It's not only in Spain that I hope the aged who are too brainwashed to see that they have been brainwashed soon depart the planet. It is the future generations that don't become brainwashed because of us gnus that will rid the world of religion and teh idea that faith is a good thing. Faith is the antithesis of everything that has allowed us to become the modern world of today, namely science and reason, rational, skeptical thought. The BCSE and NCSE threads on Pharyngula and WEIT just show that we have battles to win with organizations that pretend to support science. How can anyone think that religion is not the complete opposite of science? How can they have accomodationist bullshit on their supposed science education website?

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:11:10 UTC | #619827

RDfan's Avatar Comment 9 by RDfan

I would normally hesitate before making cause/effect connections between someone's beliefs and his/her acts of violence. Whilst your example, NOIGILER, is vivid and powerful it is merely correlative rather than anything else. There may be other factors, such as Xenophobia, that may have given offense to them and inspired their reaction. It certainly can't be ruled out, based on what evidence you've given. Cultural differences, which include religious and other ideas, are often at the heart of many disputes. It is rare that only one factor is at play (I accept you did not say it was purely a religion-inspired attack).

Interestingly, the Spanish movie La lengua de las mariposas captures beautifully the inter-play between political ideology and religious zealotry in Spain before their Civil War. It also shows how quickly a crowd can change and how the young especially are vulnerable to the zeitgeist. I couldn't recommend this movie more highly.

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:16:05 UTC | #619828

Cestriana's Avatar Comment 10 by Cestriana

The other aspect to La lengua de las mariposas is that it is the character of the elderly village school teacher who espouses scientific thought and rejects religious dogma. This particular portrayal of older people's acceptance of science and reason contrasts sharply with what NOIGILER has experienced with the Madrid incident.

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:10:17 UTC | #619850

TheRationalizer's Avatar Comment 11 by TheRationalizer

I remember the beautiful stories of the bible where Jesus would go out to the sick and preach to them, then when they didn't listen he would punch the ungrateful bastards in the face.

Well, based on your story that's the kind of example you'd expect to find isn't it :)

Thanks for sharing!

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:00:48 UTC | #619864

Hammert1me's Avatar Comment 12 by Hammert1me

The rationaliser:

Did you read a verse where jesus is asked to heal some crippled families in poverty. He refuses, saying 'My child, If I heal them, there would be no incetive not to get into poverty in the first place.'

And the verse where Jesus says 'If you work hard and find sucess, do not squander and waste your wealth on the less fortunate. Keep all that you own but a small token percentage and you will find treasure in heaven.'

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:50:59 UTC | #619872

RDfan's Avatar Comment 13 by RDfan

Comment 10 by Cestriana.

Yes, agreed. It was the old guy, the teacher, who was the lone spirit and voice of reason in the movie. The other middle-aged folk were all sheep who fell in line with dogma and tradition. As for the little boy's father - poor fellow was caught between a rock and a hard place by having to decide between family/life and free thought/death. The boy, too, was excellent and...oh, better not give it away!

This is a great movie deserving of several Oscars. It's a shame not many more people have watched it!

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:34:44 UTC | #619915

Jay G's Avatar Comment 14 by Jay G

I don't think your experience even comes close to what the victims of the Inquisition went through.

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:46:35 UTC | #619919

thebaldgit's Avatar Comment 15 by thebaldgit

As Pitchguest has invoked Monty Python and the Spanish Inquisition then I must wonder whether Cardinal Fang could have been far away?

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:48:29 UTC | #619920

Cestriana's Avatar Comment 16 by Cestriana

RDfan

You are so right. It's a fantastic movie, including the acting. It should be made compulsory viewing for every hispanohablante (ojal√°!)

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:27:36 UTC | #619934

C.Wood's Avatar Comment 17 by C.Wood

I live in Portugal (yes, that little piece of land next to Spain), and I do think such religious fanaticism is something quickly disappearing among the young ones. Not completely, of course.

A shame what happened to you and your wife. Glad you made it out unharmed. I "pray" (metaphorically speaking) these sort of events will eventually disappear entirely, in this little peninsula :)

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 17:16:38 UTC | #620007

noigiler's Avatar Comment 18 by noigiler

Jay G, I couldn't agree more. What I experienced hardly compares to the large scale persecutions numerous groups have suffered in the name of religion, the Inquisition being but one. If I felt as "violated" as I did as a result if such a comparably trivial experience, I can't even begin to imagine what it was like back then...

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 17:35:10 UTC | #620017

TheRationalizer's Avatar Comment 19 by TheRationalizer

Comment 12 by Hammert1me : Did you read a verse where jesus is asked to heal some crippled families in poverty. He refuses, saying 'My child, If I heal them, there would be no incetive not to get into poverty in the first place.'

Sounds like a scene from A Christmas Carol :) Where is that?

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 18:00:40 UTC | #620025

Jumped Up Chimpanzee's Avatar Comment 20 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee

This episode sounds like a great example to bring up every time you hear some religionist banging on about the dangers of secularism.

All secularists want is to be able to go about their peaceful business without being bullied in any way by religionists.

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 18:13:23 UTC | #620031

DocWebster's Avatar Comment 21 by DocWebster

Just today, about three hours ago, I was on a city bus riding from one place to another when I was questioned by a younger lady (by three years or so, but I'm polite about such things) about whether I was a "Child of Christ". I told her such matters weren't for public discourse on a crowded bus and was none of her business besides. She actually paled then retorted that it certainly sounded like I needed to pray about it with her because I was too angry to not "Heed the Word" and that anger would be my downfall. I got up to move and an older man put a hand on my shoulder to try to sit me back down while he said "You need to listen to young lady", It just isn't proper to hit a woman or an old man and certainly would have gone to the pokey if I had but how is this not abuse? In any other context it would be intolerable for such behavior. I also wouldn't get anywhere reporting the matter because law enforcement is it's own little "Faith Mafia" since most of the force is made up of former members of the Armed Services. I didn't want to mention my atheism at all but anyone who tries to keep their faith or lack thereof quiet is deemed suspect anymore.

Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:48:25 UTC | #620100

ArtanBraeden's Avatar Comment 22 by ArtanBraeden

a sad state of affairs. I have seen what Muslims do to their own first hand and its the same. a great shame really, I'm sure any other day they would have been very generous and kindly people as are most without matters of faith forcing people to act.

Thu, 28 Apr 2011 03:48:20 UTC | #620150

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 23 by Vorlund

Christopher Hitchens put it succinctly when asked if he saw a group of men coming toward him at dusk whether he would feel safer knowing that they had just come from a bible meeting. I think you know what his answer ws.

Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:40:07 UTC | #620226

C.Wood's Avatar Comment 24 by C.Wood

Comment 23 by Vorlund :

Christopher Hitchens put it succinctly when asked if he saw a group of men coming toward him at dusk whether he would feel safer knowing that they had just come from a bible meeting. I think you know what his answer ws.

Could you share the video/interview, please? I'd love to see him answering that!

Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:43:48 UTC | #620241

Anvil's Avatar Comment 25 by Anvil

Agree with the above posters, La lengua de las mariposas should be considered essential viewing for anyone interested in the fight between religion and science and how that struggle is perceived by, and affects, the following generations and the choices they can, and must, make.

A powerful depiction not only of the authority of the church during the onset of the Spanish Civil War but a thing of pure cinematic beauty. Any budding film makers out there will learn a lot from this film: each scene a gem, each shot a moment of jaw dropping awe and directorial genius that flows past your vision, invisible to your conscious mind only to be seen on subsequent (and, happily, numerous) viewings.

Since I first came across this wonderful film I've never watched a butterfly in my garden without being both instantly transported to this sad period in the history of Europe, and reminded of the sheer talent produced by the evolution of the human brain.

Highly recommended.

Anvil.

Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:38:22 UTC | #620311

Stonyground's Avatar Comment 26 by Stonyground

Christopher Hitchens mentions the question about the men coming from the prayer group at dusk in his book 'God is not Great'.

I take some encouragement from this story in that the most devoutly religious are often quite old. I have relatives who are Methodists and a couple of years ago I attended a musical event that they hosted and noticed that almost everyone in the audience was older than I am. My age being 52. Ten years ago it seemed that religion was in the last stages of a long slow death. I thought that the 9/11 incident would be a wake up call to everyone that it was time to commit religion once and for all to the dustbin of history. Instead we seem to have had the opposite effect, with God bothering idiots turning up the volume everywhere. On the other hand, the Gnus have accepted the challenge and proved that the religiots have nothing but insults to counter atheist arguments. Hopefully we can prevent the younger generations from becoming infected so that human mortality helps to do the job for us. I hope that I live long enough to see a secular Europe at least.

Thu, 28 Apr 2011 18:27:23 UTC | #620326

Saganic Rites's Avatar Comment 27 by Saganic Rites

Comment 21 by DocWebster Just today, about three hours ago, I was on a city bus riding from one place to another when I was questioned by a younger lady (by three years or so, but I'm polite about such things) about whether I was a "Child of Christ". I told her such matters weren't for public discourse on a crowded bus and was none of her business besides. She actually paled then retorted that it certainly sounded like I needed to pray about it with her because I was too angry to not "Heed the Word" and that anger would be my downfall. I got up to move and an older man put a hand on my shoulder to try to sit me back down while he said "You need to listen to young lady",

This is why I always carry a copy of the Koran when I'm on public transport. If approached by religious loonies, Daily Mail readers or just want a bit of space, I simply whip out the book and read from it in a loud and dramatically manic voice, at the same time moving my free hand slowly towards whatever bag I may be carrying (or inside the jacket if no bags are at hand).

Result every time:-)

Fri, 29 Apr 2011 00:34:47 UTC | #620458

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 28 by Alan4discussion

Comment 21 by DocWebster

I'm not sure where you are, but on a bus here in the North of England, I would have no hesitation in calmly but firmly telling such people to grow up out of their childish fundamentalism!

Fri, 29 Apr 2011 09:27:27 UTC | #620553

Vogon42's Avatar Comment 29 by Vogon42

Comment 2 by Hammert1me :

This may be the strangest thing I have ever thought. What is the deal with ancestor worship? Just becuase someone is old doesn't automatically mean they are a better person than you. Indeed, we are talking about a generation that tolerated homobashing and excluded fallen women. Thier grandparents thought slavery was great idea. If anything, the old should respect the young. They (nomally) turn out better then thier parents.

Is age really an issue? My grandmother (born 1886) was an atheist, my mother was a Christian, I am an atheist my son is a Christian. Lucian writing in the second century AD produced some extremely witty debunking of religion.

Respect should be bestowed on individuals according to one's assessment of their worth, not according to their age, their sex, their race or any other general classification. Nor does a change in the zeitgeist - from oppressing homosexuals to tolerating them - justify smearing yesterday's generation by making judgmental assumptions about their attitudes in their youth, according to today's standards. Who was it who changed public opinion about that? Not today's youth who grow up absorbing the current morality, it must have been some of yesterday's people.

Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:08:04 UTC | #620834

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 30 by Vorlund

Comment 24 by C.Wood :

Comment 23 by Vorlund :

Christopher Hitchens put it succinctly when asked if he saw a group of men coming toward him at dusk whether he would feel safer knowing that they had just come from a bible meeting. I think you know what his answer ws.

Could you share the video/interview, please? I'd love to see him answering that!

No link to the actual dialogue but this article refers and you may be able to track it down.

http://www.andyross.net/hitchens.htm

Mon, 02 May 2011 16:14:31 UTC | #622082