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Male genital mutilation - Comments

green and dying's Avatar Comment 1 by green and dying

"Free unnecessary genital amputation surgery party" is a horrible enough idea but it's also for children.

No, you're not the only person who finds it absolutely sick. Is it even for religious reasons?

Mon, 09 May 2011 17:40:01 UTC | #624978

PrimeNumbers's Avatar Comment 2 by PrimeNumbers

No, you're not the only person who finds it sick. It's a barbaric process that should be banned.

Mon, 09 May 2011 17:51:29 UTC | #624982

six45ive's Avatar Comment 3 by six45ive

Ditto the above comments. Why is this kind of abuse any different, if not worse, than what a large number of priveleged priests, rabbis and imams get up to with young boys behind closed doors?

Mon, 09 May 2011 17:58:18 UTC | #624988

Sample's Avatar Comment 4 by Sample

Something tells me this stunt isn't targeting non-Catholic families with genetic predispositions for congenital phimosis.

Mike

Mon, 09 May 2011 18:34:58 UTC | #625021

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 5 by Stevehill

I read another report on this. The concern is that back street circumcisions are being done in unsanitary conditions. Since they are going to be done anyway (and they are), why not at least create a climate in which bad outcomes are minimised?

I see the point.

But I remain appalled at the needless mutilation of people who are not old enough to give informed consent to the procedure. And before we get holier than thou about it, I'm one of them, as are many many millions in the west who have been circumcised for non-religious (but equally fucking bananas) reasons.

On this one, we have no right to tell the Philippines how to live their lives unless and until America and the EU ban it too (absent informed adult consent).

Mon, 09 May 2011 18:37:47 UTC | #625023

green and dying's Avatar Comment 6 by green and dying

Comment 5 by Stevehill :

On this one, we have no right to tell the Philippines how to live their lives unless and until America and the EU ban it too (absent informed adult consent).

I doubt there's anyone who wants the Philippines to ban it who doesn't also want America and Europe to ban it.

Mon, 09 May 2011 18:46:58 UTC | #625034

knockknock's Avatar Comment 7 by knockknock

You're not the only person who finds this sick, by a long shot - although we shall wait and see what happens once any guests from the USA weigh in...

One thing I would mention is that the 'harm reduction' of genitally mutilating minors under sterile conditions, and with every other benefit of modern medicine, both reduces harm in the short term and legitimises the practice - with both male circumcision and the various types of female genital mutilation. There are actually people out there now who blithely dismiss the harmfulness of the full horrific service of scraping girls out and sewing them up, on the basis that there are now good doctors who'll do it 'safely'... This kind of 'harm reduction' is such an ethical minefield, in places where genital mutilation is entrenched...

Mon, 09 May 2011 19:37:30 UTC | #625053

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 8 by SomersetJohn

Keep calling it genital mutilation.

Keep calling the perpetrators child abusers.

Identify them and plaster their details and pictures over the internet, and where safe on posters near their homes.

If the GBR include this "Record" in their book try to get it banned because it is promoting child abuse. (I know this will not work, it's for publicity.

Mon, 09 May 2011 19:49:40 UTC | #625056

Problem Solved's Avatar Comment 9 by Problem Solved

Looks like Guinness feels the same.

Mon, 09 May 2011 20:34:05 UTC | #625073

green and dying's Avatar Comment 10 by green and dying

Comment 7 by knockknock :

One thing I would mention is that the 'harm reduction' of genitally mutilating minors under sterile conditions, and with every other benefit of modern medicine, both reduces harm in the short term and legitimises the practice - with both male circumcision and the various types of female genital mutilation.

Yes. We can't legitimise child abuse just because if we don't support it they will do it worse. I don't think the main problem is that people do it in unsafe ways, I think the main problem is that it's culturally endorsed at all and not seen as wrong and abusive. I don't find it that much more acceptable when done by doctors. I won't support even a tiny "nick" for girls like was suggested in America a while ago and I definitely won't support full circumcisions for boys for any reason other than a genuine medical need, like any other body part.

Mon, 09 May 2011 21:37:03 UTC | #625100

Ungodly1's Avatar Comment 11 by Ungodly1

The idea of genital mutilation is absolutely revolting, and no child should be forced to undergo such a barbaric ritual against his or her will. If I were a god I would make forcing circumcision on a child punishable by death!

Mon, 09 May 2011 22:22:08 UTC | #625120

RomeStu's Avatar Comment 12 by RomeStu

Comment 5 by Stevehill :

On this one, we have no right to tell the Philippines how to live their lives unless and until America and the EU ban it too (absent informed adult consent).

I absolutely agree - the UN should be all over this one. Genital mutilation of children has no place in the modern world. Somehow with all the (justified) outcry against female circumcision, the poor boys have been left out in the cold.

However, in California a fine resident of San Francisco has proposed a ban on circumcision within the city limits which may go to referendum.

Mon, 09 May 2011 22:40:26 UTC | #625127

danconquer's Avatar Comment 13 by danconquer

Nothing better demonstrates the power of Strength In Numbers than the utterly supine response of almost every government in their feeble non-efforts to tackle what is perhaps the worlds single most widespread form of ritual child abuse. Any miniscule sect which declared that their god required them to remove the little toes, or ear lobes of their child would quickly feel the full force of the law, and the children taken into protective custody.

The Sunday Times almost jovial 'funny-old-world' tone of reportage is shameful too. What next? An entirely uncritical report about a sweatshop factory owner attempting to set a new Guiness World Record by getting all of his 10 year old employees to work continuously without rest for 48 hours?

Mon, 09 May 2011 23:18:57 UTC | #625138

JuJu's Avatar Comment 14 by JuJu

I heard they had a sale on "pork rinds" the next day at the local market.

Mon, 09 May 2011 23:19:42 UTC | #625139

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 15 by Schrodinger's Cat

One has to seriously wonder about a world where the likes of Ed Gein and Jeffrey Dahmer get locked up.......while half the inhabitants worship some 'god' whose collection of human trophy bits make the average serial killer look very inadequate.

If ever the term 'silence of the lambs' was appropriate......it is the mutilation of the young and innocent to feed the appetite of that great Hannibal Lecter in the sky.

Tue, 10 May 2011 00:13:11 UTC | #625156

middo's Avatar Comment 16 by middo

While I do not like the idea of a "circumcision party", a few things need to be put into context here. Male circumcision has been shown in South Africa to clearly reduce to transmission of the AIDS virus. AIDS is a significant issue in the Phillipines, and anything that can be done to reduce it's spread should be encouraged rather than stifled.

Circumcision of males is vastly different from the genital mutilation of females. Circumcision is not designed and has never been shown to affect the enjoyment of sex by the male involved, and should not result in adverse effects unless being done by backyard operators in unsanitary conditions.

As for the argument that there is no consent, there is no consent for vaccination either, yet no sane person would suggest that we should stop vaccinating children because of the lack of consent.

Find a real problem to tackle, such as poverty, education or female empowerment in the third world.

Tue, 10 May 2011 02:15:01 UTC | #625184

green and dying's Avatar Comment 17 by green and dying

Comment 16 by middo :

AIDS is a significant issue in the Phillipines, and anything that can be done to reduce it's spread should be encouraged rather than stifled.

Anything? Really?

Tue, 10 May 2011 02:30:36 UTC | #625190

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 18 by Schrodinger's Cat

Comment 16 by middo

AIDS is a significant issue in the Phillipines, and anything that can be done to reduce it's spread should be encouraged rather than stifled.

What's that got to do with the non-consensual mutilation of children ?

Tue, 10 May 2011 02:54:12 UTC | #625195

green and dying's Avatar Comment 19 by green and dying

Comment 18 by Schrodinger's Cat :

What's that got to do with the non-consensual mutilation of children ?

Children have lots of sex and spread AIDS.

To be fair I Googled it and apparently it was pre-teens which probably is the age you'd want to do it if you were doing it to prevent the spread of HIV through sex, but it's a terrible argument anyway. I'm sure we could come up with something to do to female genitalia that would reduce the spread of HIV, but because it's not culturally acceptable to do in any Western country nobody here would seriously argue in favour of it.

Tue, 10 May 2011 03:10:13 UTC | #625199

zengardener's Avatar Comment 20 by zengardener

Ban it. When people are found to be circumcised, Throw their parents in jail.

Tue, 10 May 2011 05:15:40 UTC | #625211

mmurray's Avatar Comment 21 by mmurray

Comment 16 by middo :

Circumcision of males is vastly different from the genital mutilation of females. Circumcision is not designed and has never been shown to affect the enjoyment of sex by the male involved, and should not result in adverse effects unless being done by backyard operators in unsanitary conditions.

There is a lot of dispute about the impact on enjoyment and even when done properly by western doctors there are occasional severe complications such as death or loss of the penis. Have a look here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Complications

Given the operation is not medically necessary any complication is too much.

As for the AIDS/HIV link there is plenty of time when the child grows up for it to choose if it wants to be circumcised, or use condoms or abstain completely etc.

Find a real problem to tackle, such as poverty, education or female empowerment in the third world.

The fact that there are more serious problems in the world does not mean male circumcision is not a problem.

Michael

Tue, 10 May 2011 06:57:29 UTC | #625225

TheRationalizer's Avatar Comment 22 by TheRationalizer

How about we organise a petition to get it banned here in the UK? If someone wants to dedicate their life to their god they can arrange having their own foreskin cut off when they are an adult.

Tue, 10 May 2011 09:36:34 UTC | #625251

skeelo's Avatar Comment 23 by skeelo

Comment 22 by TheRationalizer :

If someone wants to dedicate their life to their god they can arrange having their own foreskin cut off when they are an adult.

I agree, you should have to be an adult to be able to consent to this barbarity. We should make 18 years the minimum 'cut-off point'.

I suspect even the most devout teenage Jews and Muslims would think twice before going through with it...

Tue, 10 May 2011 09:46:02 UTC | #625254

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 24 by Stevehill

AIDS is a significant issue in the Phillipines, and anything that can be done to reduce it's spread should be encouraged rather than stifled.

AIDS is a significant issue anywhere. But the advice of the British Medical Association to doctors is that the evidence of medical benefits is at best equivocal.

Doctors Opposing Circumcision hold - I would say correctly - that circumcision is a violation of the child's human rights.

Tue, 10 May 2011 09:51:18 UTC | #625256

SaganTheCat's Avatar Comment 25 by SaganTheCat

it's a sick practice alright. beyond contempt

still it's tradition and a day out for everyone plus a new world record so let's not be killjoys. wonder if guinness include the highest number of corrective rapes in a single day as well?

Tue, 10 May 2011 11:54:11 UTC | #625278

mmurray's Avatar Comment 26 by mmurray

Comment 25 by Daniel Clear :

it's a sick practice alright. beyond contempt

still it's tradition and a day out for everyone plus a new world record so let's not be killjoys. wonder if guinness include the highest number of corrective rapes in a single day as well?

See comment 9. Guinness want nothing to do with this.

Michael

Tue, 10 May 2011 12:12:58 UTC | #625284

Hellboy2's Avatar Comment 27 by Hellboy2

Definitely a primitive, religiously inspired act. Why not just educate them in the purpose and use of condoms? But to usually pay £25 for the 'slice 'n' dice'?!! Where does that money go?

Tue, 10 May 2011 15:18:08 UTC | #625366

DefenderOfReason!'s Avatar Comment 28 by DefenderOfReason!

"As to immoral practice, it is hard to imagine anything more grotesque than the mutilation of infant genitalia. Nor is it easy to imagine anything more incompatable with the argument from design."

Christopher Hitchens

Wed, 11 May 2011 06:10:11 UTC | #625683

aquilacane's Avatar Comment 29 by aquilacane

I ruined a good friendship informing a mate's father I'd lock him up for genital mutilation if I had the chance. You could tell he knew he was a fucker for doing it.

Thu, 12 May 2011 16:55:52 UTC | #626242

PersephonePam's Avatar Comment 30 by PersephonePam

I am most interested to find this thread here. I am busy fighting male genital mutilation in South Africa, where it is being touted as a cure for HIV. The studies this conclusion is based on were basically flawed, but the doctors covered their tracks well, circumcising the control groups too when the experiment was over, so that no long-term follow up was possible. They now have the WHO and UNAIDS on board, and there is pressure being put on all parents to circumcise their babies, in spite of the fact that even had the studies been accurate, these children will not become sexually active for at least 12 years. Their reasoning is that "babies don't feel pain". OMG! I have been dealing with this issue in psychotherapy since the 1980s where I have worked with adults reliving their circumcision trauma in infancy. Below is the true story of someone I knew (now deceased). It was published in a South African magazine and caused and uproar as you can imagine... We had some very angry Rabbis!

MARK'S STORY: Below is the relevant part of the magazine article, which was published by Personality Magazine:

Mark said: "I think it is terribly important that people should know about the pain and trauma experienced by a baby during circumcision. I was born into a family who circumcise their infant sons for traditional reasons and, until fairly recently, I never questioned the practice.

"However, throughout my childhood I had a 'waking nightmare' that I never understood. I would see myself lying helplessly, gazing up at a group of smiling monsters who were standing around me and staring down at me. I was completely at their mercy and I knew they were going to torture me - but I never found out how.

"Then some years ago, while I was undergoing psychotherapy, I began to spontaneously relive the nightmare in its real context. The 'monsters' turned out to be the male members of my family. They were holding my penis and were about to cut it and I started to actually relive some of the pain, shock and, worst of all, the terrible sense of betrayal of my circumcision.

"I was having psychotherapy because of sexual problems which made it almost impossible for me to have a relationship with a woman, but I never guessed where the problems had originated. After reliving the trauma of my circumcision I had my first successful relationship with a woman.

"What horrifies me more than anything is that my well-meaning and smiling relatives had no idea of the pain they caused me or of the scars it would leave on my mind. I don't have a son, but if I ever do have one he will not be circumcised. I have promised never to do to a son of mine what was done to me."

Mark is one of a growing number of people who are questioning the practice of circumcision.

(PERSONALITY, October 14, 1987, p. 36)

Thu, 12 May 2011 16:58:15 UTC | #626243