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Religion strikes again. - Comments

RDfan's Avatar Comment 1 by RDfan

Hang on, if he "attempted" to set fire to the house it means he did not succeed, right?

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 10:52:23 UTC | #638772

Dhamma's Avatar Comment 2 by Dhamma

"MUST pray"? Wait a minute, I think there's something in the constitution about this....

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 10:57:41 UTC | #638777

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 3 by Tyler Durden

We usually think of this sort of thing happening in Muslim countries. We Jews like to see ourselves, even our right-wing orthodox, as somehow being above religious violence (at least towards our own).

Both ideologies are based on ancient traditions, dogma and irrationality, why would you think there would be any difference?

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:11:55 UTC | #638783

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 4 by AtheistEgbert

Humanity seems more governed by irrationality rather than rationality, especially when involved in social relationships.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:15:34 UTC | #638784

mmurray's Avatar Comment 5 by mmurray

We Jews like to see ourselves, even our right-wing orthodox, as somehow being above religious violence (at least towards our own). Maybe some good will come out of this if it helps people to start to think for themselves for a change. (I doubt it)

I thought that aggression by orthodox Israelis towards other Israelis, particularly women, was not unheard of.

“Mehadrin” buses were heavily criticized in the media worldwide after an American Jewish woman, Miriam Shear, reported being attacked and beaten by a group of ultra-Orthodox men, after refusing to move to the back of the bus on a non-segregated line. The bus driver contended there was no violence, but that he did see a crowd around Shear and stopped the bus to inform passengers that his line was not sex segregated. Another passenger, however, confirmed Shear's account.[8] Critics have likened the “mehadrin” lines to racial segregation in the United States, with Shear compared to African American icon Rosa Parks.[9] Two years before, in July 2004, American-Israeli novelist Naomi Ragen, after unintentionally boarding a “mehadrin” bus toward her home in Ramot, was insulted and physically threatened because she refused to give up her seat and move to the back of the bus.[10]

wikipedia

Michael

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:25:29 UTC | #638787

Jay G's Avatar Comment 6 by Jay G

Comment 1 by RDfan :

Hang on, if he "attempted" to set fire to the house it means he did not succeed, right?

He succeeded in setting fire to the homeowner instead of the home.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:43:48 UTC | #638794

Peter Watkinson's Avatar Comment 7 by Peter Watkinson

I found this on Wikipedia.

New Square arson attack

On May 22, 2011, Aron Rottenberg was attacked outside his home in New Square, New York with an incendiary device and suffered burns over 50% of his body.

Incident

The Rottenberg family had recently installed surveillance cameras, out of fear of attacks and harassment. Mr. Rottenberg’s eldest son, Jacob, was monitoring the cameras around 4 a.m. on May 22 when he saw at least one intruder placing gasoline-soaked rags behind the house. Screaming, he awoke his father, who ran outside only to have the gasoline explode and set him afire. He was attacked because he chose not to pray in New Square’s main synagogue led by Skver Grand Rabbi David Twersky. Eighteen year old Shaul Spitzer is the alleged perpetrator and is charged with first degree arson and second degree attempted murder. Spitzer is the butler of Rabbi David Twersky and lived in his home. Spitzer is also the cousin of the deputy mayor of New Square. The FBI joined the investigation of the attack and the months of violence leading up to it, including Rottenberg’s windows being smashed and his daughter’s school desk and books being dumped on the front porch. According to residents of New Square, Spitzer is part of a network of up to 40 men and boys who defend the Grand Rabbi with intimidation and violence.

Prior to the arson attack, the Rottenbergs had filed seven police reports concerning various acts and threats, beginning mid September 2010. According to Rottenberg’s wife, they were warned prior to the incident that they should move out of New Square. Ramapo police think that Spitzer planned on burning down Rottenberg’s home. The police will question Rabbi David Twersky in relation to this incident. A few days after the incident, Twersky condemned the attack, but many suspect Twersky is indirectly responsible for the attack.

May 5th incident

The May 22nd arson attack came after many months of violence in New Square over the praying by some outside the main synagogue. On May 5, 2011 the home of another resident, Ari Austerlitz, burned down. The possibility of arson is being investigated in that incident as well. Ari Austerlitz’s home was the site of a large protest in late 2009. In a previous incident, in September 2010 car windows were smashed in what is believed to be related to the same dispute.

Response

Initially, the deputy mayor of New Square, Israel Spitzer, the suspects cousin, said the attack was simply a personal dispute between the two men. The town supervisor, Christopher St. Lawrence, said he trusted the deputy mayor. St. Lawrence was re-elected in 2009 with the support of virtually all of New Square’s 2,000 voters. Peter Brower, Ramapo’s police chief, also said there was no evidence linking it to previous incidents. However, The Journal News called for a federal investigation into the incident, citing past police action, due to the alleged influence of the Skver congregation on local politicians. Later the New Square leadership issued an unsigned statement expressing shock and outrage about the incident and condemning all violence.

On May, 26 the Grand Rabbi issued the following statement in Yiddish in public to a group of the yeshiva students: “We are talking here together; perhaps bring something up here. There was a heart ache here this week. Now on first glance we should not have to bring it up again. However, all know this from all the years; we mentioned this many, many times, at every issue of going with power and forcefulness , even more so, harming a Jew bodily. It’s certainly against our way, against the way of Skver. All know the way of Skver is ‘its ways are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace’. However, since – on first glance I should not have to say this; however, since this heart ache did occur after all, perhaps it is worth it to bring it up again and indeed perpetuate it to others too this that we have discussed, God forbid not to do an issue that causes forcefulness – from going with power. As we discussed, this causes heart ache, and this is against our way and against the way of Skver. Only, this caused that Jews are in pain and need a recovery. Should indeed God help, they should have a full recovery in full and come home healthy…” A few days later he issued another statement saying that anyone who commits any acts of violence are doing more harm to him personally than is Mr. Rottenberg’s attorney, Michael Sussman.

Sorry for the length of my post, but it does give us a lot more background information.

Peter

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:10:54 UTC | #638807

MilitantNonStampCollector's Avatar Comment 8 by MilitantNonStampCollector

As Tyler says, it hardly matters what invisible dictator you pray to; there will always be lunacy and in group fighting attached.

Such is the poison of religion, even the ingroups are burning each other now. I admit it's not as bad as the inquisition but hey it's 2011 FFS.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:45:43 UTC | #638816

malreux's Avatar Comment 9 by malreux

I'm sorry it can be like this where you live, Jay G. I would recommend moving!

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:55:24 UTC | #638823

Jay G's Avatar Comment 10 by Jay G

Comment 3 by Tyler Durden :

We usually think of this sort of thing happening in Muslim countries. We Jews like to see ourselves, even our right-wing orthodox, as somehow being above religious violence (at least towards our own).

Both ideologies are based on ancient traditions, dogma and irrationality, why would you think there would be any difference?

Because I, like many of my fellow Jews, like to think that we are more advanced and civilized than those crazy Muslim fanatics.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:09:00 UTC | #638828

DocWebster's Avatar Comment 11 by DocWebster

Has anybody bothered to check the Rabbi for signs of dementia. It certainly wouldn't excuse the followers for their actions but it might explain the descent into darkness. An influential leader who is mentally unstable, but followed implicitly, sounds like the makings of a great novel but a poor way to live your life, Or is this starting to sound too much like the old testament?

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:59:30 UTC | #638845

valla's Avatar Comment 12 by valla

There is always this strange tolerance towards religion: if the village considered itself entirely Democrat and everybody were obliged to participate to the weekly meeting of the Party, the whole country would be outraged and it would be big news all around the world. As it is religious craze, it comes out very discreetly only when a poor guy is set on fire for going to the wrong prayer group.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:54:33 UTC | #638863

VitruviannMan's Avatar Comment 13 by VitruviannMan

Comment 10 by Jay G :

Comment 3 by Tyler Durden :

We usually think of this sort of thing happening in Muslim countries. We Jews like to see ourselves, even our right-wing orthodox, as somehow being above religious violence (at least towards our own).

Both ideologies are based on ancient traditions, dogma and irrationality, why would you think there would be any difference?

Because I, like many of my fellow Jews, like to think that we are more advanced and civilized than those crazy Muslim fanatics.

Jay G, there's certainly truth to that idea as many groundbreaking inventions and discoveries were made by Jews throughout the centuries (versus practically none by Muslims), but I think you're overstretching it if you generalize it for all Jews.

The idea that people "must pray" is a fundamentalist idea no matter what the religion is, and the behavior that accompanies it will be similarly extreme. And since we're talking about an Abrahamic religion, we shouldn't be too surprised to find such nut-jobs, who in their minds are just being "faithful" followers.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:55:28 UTC | #638864

Marcus Small's Avatar Comment 14 by Marcus Small

Comment 13 by VitruviannMan :

Jay G, there's certainly truth to that idea as many groundbreaking inventions and discoveries were made by Jews throughout the centuries (versus practically none by Muslims), but I think you're overstretching it if you generalize it for all Jews.

Really? I think you will find that people in Islamic countries, Jews and Muslims, were doing quite advanced science when much of Europe was in the dark ages.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:35:15 UTC | #638874

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 15 by Ignorant Amos

A fine example of religious accommodation...NOT!

What should we call these people if not "fuckwits"

Religion poisons everything.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:35:27 UTC | #638875

justinesaracen's Avatar Comment 16 by justinesaracen

Jay G,

If you do not believe in the Old Testament or the dogmas of Judaism, why do you identify as a Jew? When I stopped believing in the divinity of Jesus, I stopped saying I was a Christian. Unless there is a Jewish gene, I am puzzled by the apparent independence of Jewish identity from Jewish religion.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:48:40 UTC | #638882

skiles1's Avatar Comment 17 by skiles1

Yesterday, I read a little about this occurrence. http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Dissident-Jews-say-enclave-in-NY-oppresses-them-1422172.php

Would that be the same Rockland of Howl fame?

I’m with you in Rockland
where we wake up electrified out of the coma by our own souls’ airplanes roaring over the roof they’ve come to drop angelic bombs the hospital illuminates itself imaginary walls collapse
O skinny legions run outside
O starry-spangled shock of mercy the eternal war is here
O victory forget your underwear we’re free

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:03:00 UTC | #638947

Jay G's Avatar Comment 18 by Jay G

Comment 17 by skiles1 :

Yesterday, I read a little about this occurrence. http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Dissident-Jews-say-enclave-in-NY-oppresses-them-1422172.php Would that be the same Rockland of Howl fame?

I’m with you in Rockland where we wake up electrified out of the coma by our own souls’ airplanes roaring over the roof they’ve come to drop angelic bombs the hospital illuminates itself imaginary walls collapse O skinny legions run outside O starry-spangled shock of mercy the eternal war is here O victory forget your underwear we’re free

No, it only appears to be. Our lunatics ARE running the asylum.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:20:31 UTC | #638957

Jay G's Avatar Comment 19 by Jay G

Comment 17 by skiles1 :

Yesterday, I read a little about this occurrence. http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Dissident-Jews-say-enclave-in-NY-oppresses-them-1422172.php Would that be the same Rockland of Howl fame?

I’m with you in Rockland where we wake up electrified out of the coma by our own souls’ airplanes roaring over the roof they’ve come to drop angelic bombs the hospital illuminates itself imaginary walls collapse O skinny legions run outside O starry-spangled shock of mercy the eternal war is here O victory forget your underwear we’re free

No, it only appears to be. Our lunatics ARE running the asylum.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:20:53 UTC | #638958

skiles1's Avatar Comment 20 by skiles1

No, it only appears to be. Our lunatics ARE running the asylum.

That's alright. It doesn't seem to be any different anywhere else.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:45:06 UTC | #638963

alaskansee's Avatar Comment 21 by alaskansee

@Comment 16 by esuther

(Is) there is a Jew gene (?)

Yes, one of the very few ethnicity's that comes with a built-in religion. It is very common for secular Jews still to identify as "Jewish". Often referred to as "cultural Jews".

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:47:56 UTC | #638978

Sara12's Avatar Comment 22 by Sara12

Comment 21 by alaskansee :

@Comment 16 by esuther

(Is) there is a Jew gene (?)

Yes, one of the very few ethnicity's that comes with a built-in religion. It is very common for secular Jews still to identify as "Jewish". Often referred to as "cultural Jews".

Doesn't this have a lot to do with the religious/cultural prohibition (taboo/distaste/insert appropriate word here) on marrying outside the faith? Jews are a relatively small community, compared to Muslims and Christians, so after a few thousand years of Jews (mostly) only marrying Jews, you are bound to see something like a genetic enclave. But if more and more kids from culturally Jewish families decline that path and marry outside the faith, then I think you will be more likely to see, in subsequent generations, kids who, if they don't practice Judaism, are then less likely to identify as "culturally" Jewish. My mom's side of my family is Jewish (other than a married in corner that is Lebanese Christian) and mostly Reform Jew. Actual practice however ranges from none, like my grandparents who I am fairly certain are atheists, to an aunt and uncle who gave their kids bar mitzvahs, and do other religiously significant things, I think. My mom is in between; she doesn't believe in the supernatural nonsense, but for reasons that are not quite explicable to me, she attends the synagogue a couple of times a year. My dad is essentially a lapsed Catholic turned atheist (he never liked going to Church and never really bought into it anyway). But my mom identifies as Jewish and I think so do my grandparents. But I don't and neither does my brother. And nor does his wife who has a similar situation of mixed parentage.

There are also seems to be an ethnic difference between Jews of Eastern European or Slavic background (as my grandparents are) and Middle Eastern Jews whose families never left the area during various diasporas. There are proper words for that and I can't remember what they are. So I think to call "Jews," as a whole, an ethnicity unto themselves is fudging the lines a bit, at least.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:56:34 UTC | #639007

VitruviannMan's Avatar Comment 23 by VitruviannMan

Comment 14 by Marcus Small :

Comment 13 by VitruviannMan :

Jay G, there's certainly truth to that idea as many groundbreaking inventions and discoveries were made by Jews throughout the centuries (versus practically none by Muslims), but I think you're overstretching it if you generalize it for all Jews.

Really? I think you will find that people in Islamic countries, Jews and Muslims, were doing quite advanced science when much of Europe was in the dark ages.

I'd say, yes really. Coming from one of those islamic countries and being well versed in the achievements of medieval Islamic scholars (and learning about them from biased sources no less) I can tell you that the grand achievements of Muslim scientists do not even come close to matching up to those of Jewish ones.

This obviously doesn't have anything to do with Muslim people's ability to do science (same species of organisms) but has to do with the Muslim religion's oppression of anything or anyone that could threaten the sovereignty of Islam. Hazerfen Celebi is one such individual who suffered the consequences of his genius.

If you need additional proof, just look at how backwards the Islamic states have fallen in science and arts since Europe's break through after the Enlightenment era. Islam (or any untamed Abrahamic religion) does not foster research and technology. There's no sugar-coating around this.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:56:38 UTC | #639031

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 24 by Ignorant Amos

This obviously doesn't have anything to do with Muslim people's ability to do science (same species of organisms) but has to do with the Muslim religion's oppression of anything or anyone that could threaten the sovereignty of Islam. Hazerfen Celebi is one such individual who suffered the consequences of his genius.

One merely has to look at the number of Jewish Nobel Laureates to those won by Muslims.....if memory serves, there are 4 Muslims on the list.

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:13:11 UTC | #639036

Scruddy Bleensaver's Avatar Comment 25 by Scruddy Bleensaver

Comment 24 by Ignorant Amos :

One merely has to look at the number of Jewish Nobel Laureates to those won by Muslims.....if memory serves, there are 4 Muslims on the list.

Looking on Wikipedia , many of the Nobel prizes won by citizens of Muslim-majority countries appear to be for 'Literature' or 'Peace' (awarded when they temporarily cease slaughtering each other or Jews). Modern day Islam sucks up far too much of the intellectual rigour of its adherents to leave time for much else would be my guess.

Jews (and I'm not one), are massively overrepresented on the list of Nobel laureates in relation to their numbers, of course, but I doubt many of them were ultra-orthodoxers.

Oddly, I see Kipling among the list of Indian Nobel laureates, and Camus among the Algerians. I always considered the former English and the latter French.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 02:29:29 UTC | #639071

educationsaves's Avatar Comment 26 by educationsaves

Once again a man is harmed in the name of religion and there is insufficient outrage. Imagine if the Jewish person had been set alight by a Nazi ........the act s the same - a hate crime.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 03:14:18 UTC | #639075

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 27 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 25 by Scruddy Bleensaver

The pitfalls of relying on wiki I guess. Kipling

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:32:25 UTC | #639228

frax71's Avatar Comment 28 by frax71

@ comment 25 Scruddy Bleensaver

" Oddly, I see Kipling among the list of Indian Nobel laureates, and Camus among the Algerians. I always considered the former English and the latter French."

Kipling was born in India (Bombay") into a colonial family and was brought to England aged 5 so it would appear that he is claimed as an Indian Nobel prize winner because that is, obviously, his country of origin. Dubious and open to dispute as his parents were British but it is still the case.

Albert Camus was born in Algeria of mixed parentage, his mother was of spanish descent and his father French. Camus did not travel to France until he was 25.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:30:36 UTC | #639282

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 29 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 28 by frax71

Kipling was born in India (Bombay") into a colonial family and was brought to England aged 5 so it would appear that he is claimed as an Indian Nobel prize winner because that is, obviously, his country of origin. Dubious and open to dispute as his parents were British but it is still the case.

Yes, I'm guessing they wouldn't be claiming him if he was a mass murderer. By this example, RD is Kenyan, Arcibald Leach and Leslie Hope are English. One must remember that it was British India when Kipling was born there.

My daughter was born in West Germany....is she German, no, she was born in a British Military Hospital. I suppose when someone wins a Nobel Prize, all will endeavour to claim them, so there is hope for Kenya yet.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:39:44 UTC | #639304

Jay G's Avatar Comment 30 by Jay G

Comment 29 by Ignorant Amos :

Comment 28 by frax71

Kipling was born in India (Bombay") into a colonial family and was brought to England aged 5 so it would appear that he is claimed as an Indian Nobel prize winner because that is, obviously, his country of origin. Dubious and open to dispute as his parents were British but it is still the case.

Yes, I'm guessing they wouldn't be claiming him if he was a mass murderer. By this example, RD is Kenyan, Arcibald Leach and Leslie Hope are English. One must remember that it was British India when Kipling was born there.

My daughter was born in West Germany....is she German, no, she was born in a British Military Hospital. I suppose when someone wins a Nobel Prize, all will endeavour to claim them, so there is hope for Kenya yet.

I guess de Valera was an American. Bob Hope was English. Barak Obama is............... Oh, we'll need to see his birth certificate.

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:02:59 UTC | #639307