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Don't become pregnant in The USA - Comments

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 1 by Stevehill

Barbarism.

No doubt some fuckwit DA standing for re-election, or aiming at higher office, looking to get a few more red votes.

Bugger the collateral damage.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 08:33:09 UTC | #842737

Jay G's Avatar Comment 2 by Jay G

Wow! What an unbelievable intereference in personal freedom. They are attacking the right of a 15 year old pregnant girl to use cocaine. Big Brother is on the loose.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:33:52 UTC | #842755

mmurray's Avatar Comment 3 by mmurray

Comment 2 by Jay G :

Wow! What an unbelievable intereference in personal freedom. They are attacking the right of a 15 year old pregnant girl to use cocaine. Big Brother is on the loose.

If they are concerned about her cocaine use why not charge her with that ? Instead they charge her with murder even though there is no evidence that the drug use caused the loss of the baby. This isn't about drug use it's a very nasty attack on women by people who would like abortion laws changed.

Read the whole article linked to in the Guardian.

Michael

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:03:00 UTC | #842759

Czar's Avatar Comment 4 by Czar

That was a terrible argument.

Why should we not consider the killing of "unborn" infants (in the third trimester) as murder? We consider the killing of an infant to be murder. In order for us to remain consistent, we also have to extend this to unborn killings as well, otherwise the standard is arbitrary. For example, what on earth makes you think that a premature baby born after only seven months has more of a right to life than a baby who is "unborn" but who is at eight months gestation? The standard of being geographically located outside of the womb is a poor standard. Moreover, in the U.S. we value something called federalism. In the UK, devolution from the central authorities to local governments has only recently started to happen. In the U.S., however, states can make their own laws regarding the regulation of what is legally to be defined as an abortion and what is not. So, for example, states can ban partial-birth abortions and not violate Roe v Wade or the Planned Parenthood decision. If the assumption is made that partial-birth abortion is illegal and is the same as murder, then it follows that it is just to put the perpetrator on trial if she is responsible.

The Scott Peterson case in California is a good example. Peterson was convicted of two murders: his wife and his unborn child.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 11:34:10 UTC | #842796

DavidXanaos's Avatar Comment 5 by DavidXanaos

Comment 2 by Jay G :

Wow! What an unbelievable intereference in personal freedom. They are attacking the right of a 15 year old pregnant girl to use cocaine. Big Brother is on the loose.

Yes its her natural damn right to use any substance she wants.

The war on drugs is as legal als it was the alkohol prohibition, meaning it is not!

In my opinion it should be legal to do anything that is not done on purpose to harm the Fetus. Things that are done on purpose thould only be allowed during the time span an abortion is allowed as well.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 11:38:33 UTC | #842798

Jay G's Avatar Comment 6 by Jay G

If a pregnant woman tries to kill herself by taking rat poison, and as a result gives birth to a pre-mature fetus who dies shortly thereafter, is prosecuted for the killing of the child, that's an infringement on her rights.

If, however, she gives birth to a healthy child and THEN, as the child grows, tells the child about God and religion, THAT's child abuse.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 11:52:15 UTC | #842804

DavidXanaos's Avatar Comment 7 by DavidXanaos

Comment 6 by Jay G :

If a pregnant woman tries to kill herself by taking rat poison, and as a result gives birth to a pre-mature fetus who dies shortly thereafter, is prosecuted for the killing of the child, that's an infringement on her rights.

If, however, she gives birth to a healthy child and THEN, as the child grows, tells the child about God and religion, THAT's child abuse.

Yes, exactly.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:00:11 UTC | #842809

Jay G's Avatar Comment 8 by Jay G

The title of this thread is misleading. It ought to read "Don't become pregnant in the USA and then take drugs or ingest rat poison in a failed suicide attempt"

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:12:24 UTC | #842814

DavidXanaos's Avatar Comment 9 by DavidXanaos

Well but they are not prosecuting her for the rat poison but for the recreation drugs she may or may not have took months earlier.

Those the title is appropriate.

Becoming pregnant in the USA is no becoming a not calculable risk, unless you are going to live 9 months like a none.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:16:51 UTC | #842815

Jay G's Avatar Comment 10 by Jay G

Comment 7 by DavidXanaos :

Comment 6 by Jay G :

If a pregnant woman tries to kill herself by taking rat poison, and as a result gives birth to a pre-mature fetus who dies shortly thereafter, is prosecuted for the killing of the child, that's an infringement on her rights.

If, however, she gives birth to a healthy child and THEN, as the child grows, tells the child about God and religion, THAT's child abuse.

Yes, exactly.

I think you would have made a great party member. Never let any consideration get in the way of the orthodox ideology.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:23:44 UTC | #842816

DavidXanaos's Avatar Comment 11 by DavidXanaos

Comment 10 by Jay G :

I think you would have made a great party member. Never let any consideration get in the way of the orthodox ideology.

What party do you mean, there are so much, tee party, komunist party, pirate party, liberal party, nazi pary?

Whats the alternative? To tell the pregnant woman that she is now for 9 months a slave of her unborn child?

David X.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:35:41 UTC | #842821

Jay G's Avatar Comment 12 by Jay G

Comment 11 by DavidXanaos :

Comment 10 by Jay G :

I think you would have made a great party member. Never let any consideration get in the way of the orthodox ideology.

What party do you mean, there are so much, tee party, komunist party, pirate party, liberal party, nazi pary?

Whats the alternative? To tell the pregnant woman that she is now for 9 months a slave of her unborn child? David X.

The alternative is to hold a pregnant mother to a standard of responsible behavior, as we would anybody else.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:45:06 UTC | #842825

God fearing Atheist's Avatar Comment 13 by God fearing Atheist

The more I hear about the xtian right and the GOP in the USA the more I think they are trying to take the USA back to a 19th century theocracy. Maybe us commie, pinko, faggot, Europeans are getting the wrong impression, and all is wholesome with the current US political system, but if I was a left/centre American at the moment I would either be fighting hard or planning to emigrate.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:05:47 UTC | #842838

Czar's Avatar Comment 14 by Czar

Im sorry to say, but this is ignorant. I know you are immersed in state-sponsored religious institutions in the UK, but in the U.S. we have never been a "theocracy." On the contrary, our government has never respected the establishment of any state religion and the GOP does NOT support bringing about a state church or anything like one.

Comment 13 by God fearing Atheist :

The more I hear about the xtian right and the GOP in the USA the more I think they are trying to take the USA back to a 19th century theocracy. Maybe us commie, pinko, faggot, Europeans are getting the wrong impression, and all is wholesome with the current US political system, but if I was a left/centre American at the moment I would either be fighting hard or planning to emigrate.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:25:50 UTC | #842847

DavidXanaos's Avatar Comment 15 by DavidXanaos

Comment 12 by Jay G :

The alternative is to hold a pregnant mother to a standard of responsible behavior, as we would anybody else.

Anybody else to a standard of responsible behavior would we really? And that with the thread of a murder charge?

I mean really, even a drunk driver is charged only with man slather and not with murder.

And the question is how humane it is to force a person to become someone else for entire 9 months?

For a normal person it is "responsible behavioure" to get drunk once a week or so, why should this be turned into "irresponsible behavioure" only because you have somethig liek a parasite along for the ride and why should it be your job to make sure it gets a good diet? <- excuse may over extreme choice of words.

I mean what is being done in the USA is to turn any failed pregnancy into a possible murder charge.

I know that this is a really hard issue, on one hand we have the freedom of the mother and on the other the freedom of the unborn child. And as long as we don't have the technology to extract any Fetus and let it grow in a petri dish for the reminding 9 months, this will remain a hard problem.

But I tent to argue that that in case of Dependant lives the freedom of the one that is capable of self sustenance must take precedence, and this would usually be the mother.

David X.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:39:55 UTC | #842853

God fearing Atheist's Avatar Comment 16 by God fearing Atheist

Comment 14 by Czar :

"back" refers to "19th century"

"theocracy" refers to where it might be going.

Of course, it would take an xtian to deny it.

Any comment from American lefties?

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:45:14 UTC | #842857

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 17 by SomersetJohn

For me, the most disturbing thing about the case mentioned is not just the murder charge, but bringing that charge against what in any civilised country would be a child. I am not pleased that no-one else brought this up.

I know nothing about this girls background, so my assumption of her being badly educated, (almost a given in much of the U.S.) deprived background, functionally illiterate may not be accurate. I'm pretty sure it would be most of the time.

America produced, in it's constitution and it's bill of rights, two of the greatest greatest works of humanity. Now it seems bound and determined to not only undo everything they tried to create with those transcendent works but to rebuild America in the image of Hitler's Germany or Pol Pot's Cambodia.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 17:14:22 UTC | #842943

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 18 by Stevehill

czar

Because as a matter of law, in every society on earth, life begins on your zeroeth birthday and not before. You cannot murder someone who is not alive.

You posit a very steep slippery slope which will incarcerate for life (or, in America, possibly execute) pregnant women who have a drink or a few cigarettes.

Stillbirths happen with or without substance abuse. It's a very brave (perhaps a better word would be "imbecilic") prosecutor who thinks he knows enough to say categorically where the blame lies in this case.

A humane response would probably be sympathy towards the mother for her loss. And possibly the offer of rehab for her problem.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 20:20:59 UTC | #843035

BeanSlap's Avatar Comment 19 by BeanSlap

Wow, shes 15 and they want to put her away for life? If she had a cocaine habit thats very sad. In her state they deprive teens of sex education, access to abortion service, and plan B and then when a teen who is an addict is pregnant they force her to go to jail for life for taking drugs while pregnant? It seems she is the product of parental neglect. I mean, she is still a minor. This also doesnt make sense as killing an adult via something like a DUI is apparently less of a crime that taking drugs while pregnant (as it wasnt shown that taking drugs contributed to the fetuses death)? Its simply barbaric. The other women outright denied taking any drugs and one woman had a downs syndrome pregnancy. This has nothing to do with secular thinking but trying to push dogma down peoples throats. They arent paying attention to secular public policy but pushing their theocratic ideology on a victim of parental neglect. Do they not understand addiction? You dont just stop once you become pregnant. The woman who sadly tried to commit suicide is now being tried for murder? What heartless jerks for that! I mean, she was suicidal. A better solution would be to try and figure ways to stop addiction while pregnant and offer counseling services to the suicidal who are pregnant. It's like they dont care at all about the woman who attempted suicide but instead they put the fetus above an adult human being. Its simply draconian.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 22:22:53 UTC | #843109

BeanSlap's Avatar Comment 20 by BeanSlap

czar, There is no such thing as partial birth abortion. Also your reasoning is incorrect; is a seed a tree?

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 22:30:01 UTC | #843120

Valerie_'s Avatar Comment 21 by Valerie_

Comment 19 by BeanSlap :

Wow, shes 15 and they want to put her away for life? If she had a cocaine habit thats very sad. In her state they deprive teens of sex education, access to abortion service, and plan B and then when a teen who is an addict is pregnant they force her to go to jail for life for taking drugs while pregnant?... Its simply draconian.

And yet so typical of the way US society operates. People are set up to fail and then blamed when it happens. Much of this is driven by mean-spirited Christians. They're nasty unhappy people spreading the misery.

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 22:47:37 UTC | #843135

unliya73's Avatar Comment 22 by unliya73

well, don't do drugs while you pregnant! This is a non-issue.

Thu, 14 Jul 2011 00:41:14 UTC | #849572

Wibble's Avatar Comment 23 by Wibble

She's 15! What about her welfare. At best there is a statutory rape gone on and it could be much worse. And how did she come to be taking drugs in the first place?

Prosecuting her must be much easier than caring for her.

Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:39:06 UTC | #851057

amd's Avatar Comment 24 by amd

I am trying to feel sympathy for this 15 year old, but keep thinking I really don't care what age she is, or the multitude of excuses she might have had for her behaviour, she was pregnant, what the hell was this selfish, wretched creature doing snorting coke? Still, it doesn't say there is any evidence to suggest she was trying to harm the baby, she could just be incredibly selfish and stupid and if we lock everyone up for murder or for harming people by being incredibly selfish and stupid it will be a long queue.

I would like to see her in mandatory rehab. Prohibition has such a long history of being a pointless money sink, and prison is the punishment for failing to comply. I am pretty sure the powers that be know that by imprisoning those that they have turned into criminals by prohibition, they are simply throwing good money after bad - but the point is that if someone does not do as they are told, they must be punished. In the same way as I am sure most xians know that refusing sex education and preaching "just say no" in no way prevents teens from having sex - but the point is that they want women to be punished for having "unauthorised" sex by getting pregnant. It's not about genuinely changing behaviour, it's all about what people "should" be doing - about being in control.

Anyway, this girl may have been a victim of other things in her life, but she is not the victim in this case, the dead baby is. Still, draconian punishment won't change her, may possibly make her worse, where treatment and help might prevent her doing something this appalling again later, which is surely the outcome we hope for.

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:06:47 UTC | #890606