This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← Dis-honour killing, something good?

Dis-honour killing, something good? - Comments

Tryphon Tournesol's Avatar Comment 1 by Tryphon Tournesol

Fucking barbaric, but what's one supposed to say? I'm very afraid she won't be the last..

Ah well, I suddenly know what to say: religion poisons everything! Imagine your brother killing your daughter (particularly for this reason),SIGH...time to put development of mental medication for this meme as high on the list as those for AIDS and cancer.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 20:11:16 UTC | #845307

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 2 by QuestioningKat

I find this article very hopeful. A young woman prioritized her education over getting married and the father listened. When she was killed, the government listened. This is a step in the right direction.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 20:39:28 UTC | #845326

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 3 by Stevehill

There's some hope here, but what kind of "morality" says it's OK to take your brother's daughter's life, and destroy your brother and his family in the process, just because you have appointed yourself as some kind of superior interpreter of religious values?

No, I don't support the death penalty... but I'd be agreeable to this fuckwit living out the rest of his miserable existence on earth in the world's worst jail.

If every single Muslim religious leader is not prepared to condemn these actions unreservedly... why not?

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 20:50:31 UTC | #845331

Peter Watkinson's Avatar Comment 4 by Peter Watkinson

Nearby, in a vegetable shop, Jalal Danah, 25, says women’s actions are limited by Islam. “Our religion does not allow a woman to go out and practise her life without restriction. This would lead to corruption,” he says.

Moron. “Self-determination for women” doesn’t lead to “corruption”. It leads to “equality” between equals.

Peter

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 20:50:58 UTC | #845332

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 5 by keyfeatures

Er...why has this been tagged 'Islam'? I don't see what that's got to do with it....you might as well tag it 'patriarchy', probably more relevent. Or even 'human nature'.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:23:13 UTC | #845340

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 6 by AtheistEgbert

Oh of course, it has nothing to do with Islam, which is blameness and innocent. Of course, when it comes to scientific progress and mathematics, oh then it's because of Islam.

Cultural relativists and pretend egalitarians fail to understand that religion is an enabler of all sorts of atrocities, as it is basically authoritarian.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:30:15 UTC | #845344

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 7 by keyfeatures

comment 6

Or rather human nature is an enabler of both religion and atrocities and kindness. As such religion reflects all aspects of human nature. Good and bad. Variance.

You can't blame religion only people. People create their own religion.

Where is the evidence that Islam enabled this killing? Without such evidence to associate the two is irrational. The man who did the killing has been charged and held. It's a murder. We can only guess at the motives but it has been described as a sense of outrage against family honour. Such crimes predate Islam and happen in other strongly patriarchal, family centred cultures.

There's plenty to criticise in the ideologies of Islam but randomly associating crimes with a religion simply because they occur within a society where the majority are muslim is a weak and desperate method. In Iran people get arrested for practicing homosexuality. Are we to blame their homosexuality on 'Islam'?

Ludicrous.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:48:44 UTC | #845350

Moderator's Avatar Comment 8 by Moderator

It is tagged Islam because there is a statement about Islam within the article:

Nearby, in a vegetable shop, Jalal Danah, 25, says women's actions are limited by Islam. "Our religion does not allow a woman to go out and practise her life without restriction. This would lead to corruption," he says.

That's how the tags work: they aim to give a sense of the topics referred to in the articles posted.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:03:10 UTC | #845354

DavidXanaos's Avatar Comment 9 by DavidXanaos

Islam provides for this primitive apes a rational for practicing their barbaric impulses and feal good about it.

Or as a wise person said long time ago, to get good people to do bad things you need religion.

David X.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:07:14 UTC | #845357

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 10 by AtheistEgbert

Comment 7 by keyfeatures :

Ludicrous.

Please educate yourself

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:31:21 UTC | #845360

Saganic Rites's Avatar Comment 11 by Saganic Rites

Comment 3 by Stevehill ...No, I don't support the death penalty... but I'd be agreeable to this fuckwit living out the rest of his miserable existence on earth in the world's worst jail

I'd be all for a penal colony....on the moon. No terraforming or supplying air or anything luxurious like that, and let them pray their god loves them enough to do their breathing for them.

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:47:32 UTC | #845362

Nunbeliever's Avatar Comment 12 by Nunbeliever

I hope the perpetrators will rot in a stinking prison for the rest of their miserable lives. This is just horrible even if something good came out of this. Another almost as awful thing is how their neighbours and relatives treated the family. They were ostracised. Even if it had been true that their daughter had run away. What evil society puts the blame on the family? Why would it affect how the other family members are regarded. Well, stupid question. Even without horrible acts like honour killings this is a very primitive society indeed. I can't even imagine a society where the father gives away his daughter to men he think will give the family the best reputation and financial support. That is sick and twisted in my opinion. They are at least a century behind the more civilized parts of the world.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 02:09:39 UTC | #845388

Valerie_'s Avatar Comment 13 by Valerie_

Comment 7 by keyfeatures :

Where is the evidence that Islam enabled this killing? Without such evidence to associate the two is irrational.

How about right here?

Nearby, in a vegetable shop, Jalal Danah, 25, says women’s actions are limited by Islam. “Our religion does not allow a woman to go out and practise her life without restriction. This would lead to corruption,” he says.

Or here?

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."

Or this little pearl of wisdom from the Koran?

"(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment."

Or here?

"'O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.' A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah's Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: 'You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.' Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, 'Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.'"

I am tired of cutting and pasting now.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 03:02:30 UTC | #845400

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 14 by keyfeatures

Some other little pearls of wisdom from Steven PInker that might explain both the content of religious texts such as the Koran and crimes such as this one:

"In all cultures men are more aggressive, more prone to stealing, more prone to lethal violence (including war), and more likely to woo, seduce and trade favors for sex"

and this...

"The culture of honor is really a psychology of honor: a package of emotions that include a loyalty to kin, a hunger for revenge, and a drive to maintain a reputation for toughness and valor. When sparked by other human sins - envy, lust, self-deception - they can fuel a vicious cycle of violence"

Religion is a manifestation of human nature as is this crime. You might remove the religion (if human nature allows), but you won't remove the emotional drives and content behind it.

If we want to look at reasons for the lack of progress in this culture it would be best to look at the politics of the area. We are looking at a people who on Maslow's hierarchy of needs have not been able to progress very far due to political events in the region. Self- actualisation (acceptance of facts, removal of prejudice etc) is only possible once basic safety needs have been met.

Note for mods - a tag for VIOLENCE might be useful. Also GENDER. One obvious fact that appears to be playing very much second fiddle (or has even been excluded from the orchestra) is that this was a killing of a female by a male.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 05:55:42 UTC | #845413

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 15 by Stevehill

@keyfeatures

Islam is what persuaded the government of Jordan to pass into law a maximum sentence of 6 months for honour killings.

Nothing else.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:22:32 UTC | #845451

jel's Avatar Comment 16 by jel

I can't even imagine a society where the father gives away his daughter to men he think will give the family the best reputation and financial support.

I can, this was how most western society's were until very recently. Even now, in most marriage ceremonies, the father "gives" the bride (his daughter) away to another man.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 10:24:10 UTC | #845471

ukvillafan's Avatar Comment 17 by ukvillafan

Comment 14 by keyfeatures :

Some other little pearls of wisdom from Steven PInker that might explain both the content of religious texts such as the Koran and crimes such as this one:"In all cultures men are more aggressive, more prone to stealing, more prone to lethal violence (including war), and more likely to woo, seduce and trade favors for sex"and this..."The culture of honor is really a psychology of honor: a package of emotions that include a loyalty to kin, a hunger for revenge, and a drive to maintain a reputation for toughness and valor. When sparked by other human sins - envy, lust, self-deception - they can fuel a vicious cycle of violence"Religion is a manifestation of human nature as is this crime. You might remove the religion (if human nature allows), but you won't remove the emotional drives and content behind it.If we want to look at reasons for the lack of progress in this culture it would be best to look at the politics of the area. We are looking at a people who on Maslow's hierarchy of needs have not been able to progress very far due to political events in the region. Self- actualisation (acceptance of facts, removal of prejudice etc) is only possible once basic safety needs have been met.Note for mods - a tag for VIOLENCE might be useful. Also GENDER. One obvious fact that appears to be playing very much second fiddle (or has even been excluded from the orchestra) is that this was a killing of a female by a male.

But that still doesn't detract from the facts that a) the tag for Islam is there because of the quotes already referred to and b) the religion, along with others, is intrinsically sexist, devalues the position of women, makes them into objects of possession in specific terms and, thereby, encourages a psychological approach that demeans them, gives them lower status than men and permits 'honour killings' as a justified means of control.

[Edited by moderator to remove the formatting problem which had been caused by the insertion of spaces/tabs at the start of lines.]

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 10:57:21 UTC | #845478

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 18 by Schrodinger's Cat

The notion that such barbaric and inhuman behaviour could in any way be associated with 'honour' surely has to be the product of some of the sickest minds on the planet.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 12:33:06 UTC | #845493

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 19 by keyfeatures

comment 15

Actually it's a minimum 6 month sentence. They can get way more than this. It depends on the case. In the west we also reduce murder to manslaughter or "diminished responsibility" if a husband catches his wife in bed with another man for example. It just happens that the family ties that can cause a person to "see red" are considered wider in middle eastern and other Asian cultures.

Personally I think both instances are wrong. It should always be a life sentence for taking a life - whether in a fit of rage or otherwise.

I don't think anything in Islam says that such a killing is okay. Although I agree the Koran is littered with offensive passages, it doesn't say anything about taking the law into your own hands in such a way.

I'm not bothered about defending Islam. Just getting a more accurate picture of cause and effect.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 13:34:08 UTC | #845502

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 20 by SomersetJohn

Comment 12 by Nunbeliever :

Even without horrible acts like honour killings this is a very primitive society indeed.

True, but simplistic.

Many Palestinians, and many muslims, want and work to overcome the more primitive aspects of the society they live in. I don't mean a single homogenous society, Palestinian society, for example is vastly different from Bangladeshi society, though both are to some extent shaped by islam.

By educating his daughters this father was in a small way, fighting the primitive nature of his society. His fight, and the many individual tiny battles of thousands and millions of the little people will be what eventually drags these societies out of their mire.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 15:09:23 UTC | #845528

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 21 by Stevehill

They can get way more than this. It depends on the case. In the west we also reduce murder to manslaughter or "diminished responsibility" if a husband catches his wife in bed with another man for example.

No, we do not. Diminished responsibility is a euphemism for insanity. Manslaughter is death caused by negligence (like drunk driving) with no intent to kill.

You are describing murder.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 16:08:49 UTC | #845538

Peter Watkinson's Avatar Comment 22 by Peter Watkinson

Comment 20 by SomersetJohn

By educating his daughters this father was in a small way, fighting the primitive nature of his society. His fight, and the many individual tiny battles of thousands and millions of the little people will be what eventually drags these societies out of their mire.

A very good point. It’s the cost in human life and anguish that this fight has already occurred and is going to occur that sickens me.

Peter

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 16:13:58 UTC | #845541

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 23 by QuestioningKat

Comment 14 by keyfeatures :

If we want to look at reasons for the lack of progress in this culture it would be best to look at the politics of the area. We are looking at a people who on Maslow's hierarchy of needs have not been able to progress very far due to political events in the region. Self- actualisation (acceptance of facts, removal of prejudice etc) is only possible once basic safety needs have been met.

Could it be that an entire culture has been trained to be emotionally immature? I encountered an immature woman today and realized that even in my culture adults have temper tantrums, are ego-centric, lack empathy for others, do not take responsibility for themselves, and blame others. In a secular society that understands this psychology, we can better deal with and recognize poor behavior. Immature people are forced to either grow up or they face the consequences of poor social choices.

In a society, that finds it acceptable to be disrespectful to another group, women, or people with differing opinions, their personal emotional immaturity is given a stamp of approval by their religion. They can never develop into fully mature people unless, people that are emotionally mature within the group stand up to leadership positions or find ways to effectively deal with emotionally immature individuals. I feel that these people do exist in Islamic countries and I hope they find a way to voice their opinions and set an example for others to follow. Soon!

I think that at the heart of what we consider a religion problem, is really emotional immaturity. I know many fine theists all of whom are mature, well-adjusted adults. Immature religious on the other hand...well you know. The thing is, I can also say the same for atheists.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 16:40:39 UTC | #845551

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 24 by keyfeatures

comment 21

No what I described was voluntary manslaughter. Killing in the heat of passion (such as finding your spouse in bed with someone else) is typically seen as voluntary manslaughter - not murder. The sentencing for voluntary manslaughter offers greater scope for leniency at the judge's discretion. Murder on the other hand comes with a compulsory life sentence. Drunk driving I believe is constructive manslaughter in English law.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/manslaughter_voluntary.html

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 16:48:00 UTC | #845552

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 25 by keyfeatures

Comment 23 by QuestioningKat :

Could it be that an entire culture has been trained to be emotionally immature? I encountered an immature woman today and realized that even in my culture adults have temper tantrums, are ego-centric, lack empathy for others, do not take responsibility for themselves, and blame others. In a secular society that understands this psychology, we can better deal with and recognize poor behavior. Immature people are forced to either grow up or they face the consequences of poor social choices.

This sort of behaviour is largely genetically determined no matter what the psychotherapists try to sell us. As such, I really don't think you could create an entire human population of "emotionally immature" (aka narcissists etc) humans. Evolutionary variance sees to this.

Rather if you look at the general level of needs an individual is able to meet you will find corresponding behaviours. It's not so much that emotional maturity (as you describe it - I'd call it self-actualisation) creates wealth and stability, it's that wealth and stability create a less violent and base needs driven population. Wealth also tends to reduce religious belief. When people can afford doctors and medication, or see a greater number of their children through to adulthood, they have less need to turn to a supernatural crutch.

Similarly, when the poor want to help their children they turn to god. The rich turn to trust funds. My lovely illiterate muslim mother-in-law went to pray for us and leave offerings when she knew we were looking to buy a home. My parents on the other hand helped out with deposit money and mortgage advice.

For those with next to nothing, God is free.

Sat, 02 Jul 2011 17:11:19 UTC | #845556

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 26 by QuestioningKat

Re: comment 25

Poverty is ugly.

"For those with next to nothing, God is free." God is the great equalizer. The religious are told that they are children of God. Having the most wealthy "father" in the universe means that even though you are not necessarily intelligent, have a bad job, have genetically inherited health problems, and other disadvantages, your supposedly actually better off than you think you are. Unfortunately, this seems to tap into our lazy nature. Why put your efforts into improving a social injustice "it's God's Will anyway" or "God will provide."

I think wealthier people simply have focused their supernatural beliefs in a different way. Most new agey types tend to be of stable or higher SES. They don't pray for food or shelter. They try to manifest the perfect dream house, or ask to be guided to find their soulmate. They may not follow literal interpretations of traditional texts, but may practice a more "evolved" or moderate religions maybe even a personal spirituality. I have met some extremely wealthy, educated individuals, there is no lack of superstitions or irrationality with them.

Sun, 03 Jul 2011 00:39:28 UTC | #845648

reebus's Avatar Comment 27 by reebus

So called "honour killings" are barbaric and this story is no different, but it appears that something good has come of it: the Palestinian authorities have scrapped the laws that provided for leniency in these cases

A silver lining can be contrived for any atrocity. Does not excuse the atrocity or its basis and also ignores easier alternatives for the basis. A vague and random 'Something good' in relation to a flawed basis that caused the problem in the first place is nothing to crow about unless the intention is propoganda.

Sun, 03 Jul 2011 03:13:45 UTC | #845662

Stevezar's Avatar Comment 28 by Stevezar

Since there seems to be a bit of a controversy, I suggest a statistical study of crimes that occur under the defintion of "honor killing" comparing muslim and non-muslim households might be the way to resolve this.

If it is shown that the percentage chance for this type of offense is statistically the same, then I would be on board with it not being a specifically muslim problem.

However, before seeing any actual numbers, I would bet heavily in favor of there being a sizeable difference, and I would be willing to give odds.

Sun, 03 Jul 2011 07:45:28 UTC | #845682

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 29 by keyfeatures

Comment 28

You'd have to compare muslims and non-muslims with similar socio-economic backgrounds - and discredit genetic constants. Which could well prove problematic. This is the issue with correlating factors. You've got to take other variables into account.

Certainly honour killings happen in Indian hindu families and are on the rise. Honour killings also occur quite regularly in South American countries such as Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil and others.

Honour killing in Arab society certainly predates Islam. In terms of evolutionary adaptation there is a logical reason. Limiting access to a valuable asset (female reproduction / gestation capacity) for your 'enemies' clearly makes sense. If you have been unable to control the asset, or kill off the enemy, then destruction of the asset can be one option. It also explains homicidal jealous rages - "If I can't have you, then nobody else will".

Until we accept the evolutionary rationality behind horrific acts of violence - and the current limits of the civilising factors we have put in place - we're not going to be able to find ways to reduce them.

Sun, 03 Jul 2011 10:31:17 UTC | #845713

Pitchguest's Avatar Comment 30 by Pitchguest

Comment 10 by AtheistEgbert

Comment 7 by keyfeatures :

Ludicrous.

Please educate yourself

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

You suggest he gets educated about Islam and you suggest thereligionofpeace.com?

...

Ahahahahahahahahaha! Stop it! Hahahahaha!

OT: Let's educate ourselves about foreigners. Oh, I know. Let's go to Stormfront.org. They know all about them foreigners. -facepalm-

Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:49:59 UTC | #845736