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An Answer for Jehovah's Witnesses - Comments

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 1 by Alan4discussion

An interesting approach to the topic. Strict instructions on preaching but not even considering any informed input! It does not really surprise me.

My approach in the past has been to say I am not interested, and them close the door. ( Non have been near for a long time). Your case seems to be an exception. I do not waste my time on them. They have nothing to offer me and are mostly unlikely to learn anything from my comments.

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:30:10 UTC | #846917

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 2 by Stevehill

I can't honestly say I am prepared to put in the effort to spar with these people or otherwise disabuse them of their fantasies. I usually just tell people I'm working/on a conference call or something and don't have time to discuss the matter. If they so much as breathe "but", I close the door.

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:41:42 UTC | #846922

Sample's Avatar Comment 3 by Sample

I just watched a few minutes of an outtake in the recently released Lord Of The Rings blu-ray extended edition. In it, King Théoden, upon reacting to the battering ram at Helm's Deep yells out, (paraphrase), "It's the Jehovah Witnesses!" I quite enjoyed that.

I'm sure there will be letters.

Anyway, I do have a pamphlet about "Why should I believe in God?" at my door and will keep one specifically to offer JWs. Great advice, thanks for your story.

Mike

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:55:38 UTC | #846928

educationsaves's Avatar Comment 4 by educationsaves

Excellent advice for someone with an inside view. Thank you.

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 16:16:36 UTC | #846936

skiles1's Avatar Comment 5 by skiles1

Jehovah's "Witnesses" were at my door recently, and apparently when they were there, they went through my mailbox and copied my name and address from an envelope inside. Four days ago I received a letter addressed directly to me from a nearby temple. Their message (so important) was a cheesy-ass pamphlet having a drawing on the cover depicting a Hispanic family petting a lion, an Anglo-Saxon family petting a brown bear, and an Sub-Saharan African family happily carrying baskets of fruit around atop their heads. This was Jehovah's plan for the future, the pamphlet said. And, who could witness such a scene and not be moved by it? The entire world at peace, people finally enjoying their lives instead of working themselves into their graves...and African people carrying baskets of fruit atop their heads.

"Work is rest", seemed to say the African fruit laborers. And "no interbreeding in Jehovah's plan." everyone else seemed to say. What the hell kind of utopia was this supposed to be?

Well, I know bullshit art when I see it and I will tell you exactly who was not moved by that scene depicting Jehovah's plan for the future: I was not moved by it at all. I even think Jehovah's plan perhaps sucks a little bit. Sometimes I wonder if I should just answer the door and be rude to them.

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 16:18:32 UTC | #846938

hitchens_jnr's Avatar Comment 6 by hitchens_jnr

Just out of interest, scissors, do Witnesses receive any training on how to deal with "awkward" customers who challenge them? How far are they permitted to engage in debate? At what point are they encouraged to "cut and run"?

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 16:19:35 UTC | #846940

rlflores23's Avatar Comment 7 by rlflores23

I too was a JW and it wasnt a good experience growing up as a child into the "faith." I can always remember this conflicted emotion that if I had bad thoughts about my mother or my siblings or perhaps I cursed I wouldnt enter the new world. Its was extremely traumatizing listening to stories from the bible since JW´s require you spend 4-5 days of your week dedicated to the religion. It is strict and there are very strict rules on talking to other faiths, entering their churches, recieving information and associating with "Worldly people." I felt like such a bigott growing up, because it was US vs the world, as it was no wonder most of my peers who were in my congregation were leading two seperate lives. When I turned 17 and I graduated I was able to chose what religion I wanted. I decided to part ways from the church because there were too many questions unanswered. Too many idiots trying to explain to me that evolution didnt occur, or that there were no flying dinosaurs because Jehovah didnt allow animals to fly at that time. I mean it just got so stupid that I couldnt take it, I knew that it was the end of the line for me. Most of my family disapprove of my beliefs, some call me the "Atheist" and for years I was afraid to admit that I truly believed in nothing, there was too much shame associated with those that believe in nothing. However reading Richard Dawkins book The God Delusion really helped pave the way into a direction that I knew I already was in. I knew all these things but was always afraid to categorize myself as a bastard Atheist! Haha! Alas, its still an uphill battle with some siblings and family. . they will never understand. Because believe in something helps them sleep at night or deal with their mortality. I remember as a little girl not being able to talk to a girl in my congregation because she was "disfellowshiped" for having a child out of wedlock and fornication. She could still go to the church but no one was allowed to speak with her. How humiliating that was? Even as a child I never understood why God would be so mean and so cruel. It hits a nerve when JW´s come to my door, because I wish I could shake them and all that cult mumbo jumbo the World will end, trials and tribulations crap out of their heads. Who are those Elders? Who are they to decide who must be disfellowshipped and why must they only be Men? I am so glad that I am no longer part of that church and thank my very instincts & of course Richard for just being the person to help us find some truth amidst all the bullshit. :o)

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 17:51:49 UTC | #846981

Muldanian's Avatar Comment 8 by Muldanian

I too am a former Jehovah's Witness, and can't believe when I look back how I managed to fall for such a belief system. I don't even have the excuse of being raised in a JW family. I was attracted to the religion, by a kock on the front door, when I invited them in and began regular Bible study. It was only when I began to research the religion using other sources, that I discovered their real history, which is hidden from the faithful. How, the end was predicted to come in 1914. When the First World War broke out in that year, how the faithful believed it was the beginning of the end. When that didn't happen, it was predicted that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would return to Earth in 1925, for whom a luxurious mansion was built in California. When they failed to show up, the leaders of the religion decided to move in instead, enjoying the swimming pool and other "spiritual" facilities. It was then predicted that the Second Coming would take place in or before the year 1974. When this failed to happen, many thousands of JWs around the world left the religion. This is never mentioned to more recent converts though - I wonder why? I remember when I was a JW and the scandal about child abuse in the Roman Catholic Church broke. I remember how glad I was to belong to the Truth. After I left the religion, I saw a TV programme about the many cases of child abuse cases within the JWs, which the elders had kept quiet. What hypocrites!

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:52:40 UTC | #847011

bigJ's Avatar Comment 9 by bigJ

I just tell them that I'm not superstitious. That usually stops them "in their tracts", so to speak.

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:58:14 UTC | #847014

KenChimp's Avatar Comment 10 by KenChimp

One of my college buddies had a "Born Again Pagan" T-shirt he would quickly put on when he discovered Witnesses at the door. He bought the shirt (he was a firm Atheist) to piss off his girlfriend's father who was a Baptist minister.

Me? I like to ask them about "The Other People". When they profess ignorance of the Other People, I explain that when Cain slew Abel and was cursed and banished by "God", he went to the land of Nod and founded the city of Enoch. So.....where did his wife come from? With whom did he found a city? The Other People.

After this go, I explain that I am descended from The Other People, not from Adam and Eve, therefore not subject to the curse of "Original Sin", and I don't require "Witness Protection" Hehehe.

Granted, I stole the general idea from those dirty, hell-bound Heathens, Otter and Morning Glory Zell. But it is extremely entertaining to watch the expressions of the Witnesses that I can't resist using it!

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 19:33:33 UTC | #847029

bachfiend's Avatar Comment 11 by bachfiend

One of Sue Grafton's alphabet novels has her heroine Kinsey Milhone asking the JW proselytizers for their addresses, promising to pay them a visit towards the end of the week to let them know her opinions. I've been wanting to try this, but I've never had JWs visiting me.

I suspect Sue Grafton is an agnostic if not an atheist, she has such an irreverent attitude.

Incidentally, her latest 'V for Vengeance' is being released November 21.

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:54:33 UTC | #847095

Reined Dog's Avatar Comment 12 by Reined Dog

Congratulations on your escape from the high control group (cult) that is the Watchtower Society! I’m glad you were finally able to find that trigger that led you to question your hypercritical views as a Jehovah’s Witness and ultimately break free from “the truth” (LMAO)!

The simple technique that the gentleman used in your story can obviously be an effective way to plant that seed of doubt into the mind of a door knocking JW. One that I might try the next time they come calling!

I’ve already got a piece of literature ready to hand which I think would be an eye opener to any JW who had the courage to read it . For anyone who would like to see the article in question it can be downloaded here:

http://jwrecovery.org/2009/09/did-jerusalem-fall-in-607-b-c-e/

Or the Full 58 page JW Recovery Magazine in a pdf: http://jwrecovery.org/2009/09/fall-2009-edition/

For anyone not familiar with JW teachings this might not make too much sense. It basically demonstrates how you can use Watchtower theology and their own publications to disprove the supposed prophetic claims regarding the start of WW1 and 1914 (A pivotal date for JWs convincing them they are part of “gods organisation”).

The way they came about the 1914 prediction was by using some truly bizarre biblical “maths”; 360 day years, when a day actually means a year, multiply it all by 7 then divide by the square root of pi and add a pinch of salt... or something like that!?? Anyway, you can completely ignore the crazy maths and just concentrate on the starting date to get to 1914 which is said to be the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE.

Unfortunately for the folks at the Watchtower Society, any good historian could tell you all evidence points to the Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians actually occurred about 20 years later; in 586/7 BCE. The Watchtower Society would get around this by saying biblical evidence always out trumps secular evidence if it is in disagreement. But the beauty of this article is that it actually uses Watchtower literature and their own bible to show that the secular date of 587 BCE is actually the correct date for the Fall of Jerusalem. It would be hard for any Jehovah’s Witness to deny these facts printed in their own literature.

The problem of course is convincing a witness to commit to reading such an article. Especially one written by Apostate Ex JWs! In their mind the most dangerous things on the planet!! But at least you get to expose them to the hypocrisy when they refuse to read the offered literature and hopefully plant that seed of doubt. Seems like a win win situation to me!

Wed, 06 Jul 2011 22:44:26 UTC | #847108

Saganic Rites's Avatar Comment 13 by Saganic Rites

I had one cretin (Pentecost I think) who, after telling me that fossils of extinct animals are only ever found in "the sediment from the Flood", went on to inform me that extinct was "...from a Latin word meaning no longer wanted by god"

Oh yes, and the line that made me shut the door on him (persistent little bastard he was!) before I gave in to the growing temptation to beat the stupid out of him was..."Oh no Sir, Noah was not an Ay-Rab (sic), he was a Christian!

Glad you've escaped the madness Scissors-Lizard, quite nice here in the light don't you think?

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 00:48:41 UTC | #847139

Saganic Rites's Avatar Comment 14 by Saganic Rites

Comment 8 by Muldanian

I too am a former Jehovah's Witness, and can't believe when I look back how I managed to fall for such a belief system. I don't even have the excuse of being raised in a JW family. I was attracted to the religion, by a kock on the front door,....

Must have been a pretty impressive one!

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 00:55:26 UTC | #847142

Ranting Socrates's Avatar Comment 15 by Ranting Socrates

Why do you make the people you visit read the Bible out loud? I am always forced to do this. Secondly, why do you send some new people the next week after we have had a nice debate?

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 00:57:40 UTC | #847143

thatgingerscouser's Avatar Comment 16 by thatgingerscouser

My tactic (and it's a beauty):I ask if I can read from their copy of the Bible. I turn to my favourite passage, Song of Songs Chapter 5 (as if picked at random) and read this out loud:

I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.

I then SLAM the book shut and ask if they let their children read "this pornographic filth". I tell them how disgusted I am at their attempt to peddle smut to me on my doorstep, tell them that they should be ashamed of themselves and threaten to call the police if they don't vacate the premises immediately and take their dirty little book of masturbation and anal sex with them. It's really important that you say "masturbation" and "anal sex" as loudly as possible.

I then close the door and piss myself laughing.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 01:27:49 UTC | #847148

raytoman's Avatar Comment 17 by raytoman

I ask if they can read. If so, I suggest they read some non fiction, basically anything but invented religious nonsense, with anything by Richard Dawkins being a good start.

I also suggest they sue their parents for indoctrinating them with crap that has caused them to waste their lives. They should check things out for themselves before they waste the rest of their lives.

If they are elderly, I suggest they waste their lives somewhere else and stop trying to waste mine.

I think I should get a set of cards with details of Richard Dawkins' books and maybe the URL for the appropriate Amazon page to order them.

Though only 23,000 Jehovas Witnesses can attain paradise (yup! they believe crap like that) it seems millions are trying to increase the competition. Probably means they are too stupid to read or maybe know the places are already taken up by the witnesses who have already died and are too stupid to work out that paradise is full.

Must get on this card production idea.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 01:48:52 UTC | #847150

Vagabond7's Avatar Comment 18 by Vagabond7

I was also a JW before I was an atheist. My story is here if anyone is interested.

http://www.freeminds.org/life-stories/rank-file/disfellowshipping-how-it-can-effect-your-life.html

Scissor lizard probably has the most succinct way to deal with them. Unless you really just want to invest in deprogramming them, then just say that you will trade. You will gladly read one of their study books, if they will read "The God Delusion" or "The Greatest Show on Earth" and then in a couple of weeks we can meet again to discuss them. They will refuse, and you can leave them with the question "Why not? It's a sign of intellectual integrity to consider both sides of the story. I'm willing to do so, are you?" and that will be that.

Also no, JWs don't believe that only 23,000 can live in paradise, or that millions are creating competition. Spreading ignorance of their beliefs doesn't help them, it only makes them feel more vindicated (since they have a major persecution complex, even for a christian denomination). They believe only 144,000 will go to heaven and rule over mankind as kings and priests with Jesus, and all other JWs will live on a paradise earth for eternity. Don't ask exactly how that works, because they don't know either. They just assume that maybe we'll stop having babies, and keep busy studying every last insect in great detail....forever.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 04:03:08 UTC | #847163

Steve Hanson's Avatar Comment 19 by Steve Hanson

I don't care whether or not my response would be "productive". I don't go to their homes just whenever, and try to shove my atheism upon them the moment they open up the door. Their methods show a lack of respect for other people, and I have no problem telling them to fuck off.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 04:24:09 UTC | #847168

Karen Hill Anton's Avatar Comment 20 by Karen Hill Anton

12 Reined Dog:

Thanks so much for that link!

Now I know and understand why a good friend, who became a JW 20 years ago, will never, ever read anything I recommend (although I did bible study to try and understand where he was 'coming from' ...

... this from one the comments on the site re leaving the Witnesses:

"i found the kind and caring wisdom of richard dawkins in ‘the god delusion’ to be the real kicker. read it if you are ready to challenge belief itself (not just your JW beliefs) because what he says makes so much sense…so much. and you can tell he really cares about people and about truth; which is more than i can say about many witnesses i know. ... what i have learned most of all is this: no idea that is true is afraid of being challenged ... it is folly to choose to think one thing, then refuse to read or watch or listen to anything that will challenge it, it’s folly, it’s ignorance. i dont intend on being ignorant again. i am going to try to go to university next year (that’s another thing; i feel so disadvantaged. my own parents and my [JW} community discouraged me from getting an education. i feel robbed) and i just want to swim in books and new ideas; i feel like my mind is a new bird… i particularly like these stories where people were freed through reading…[as JW] we were trapped by words on a page and we can also be freed by them!

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 07:43:56 UTC | #847195

davedotcom's Avatar Comment 21 by davedotcom

It's such a shame to read about the experiences that people go through with these religios cults. However the fact that people do make it out is pretty inspiring. I clawed my way out of a Charismatic Pentecostal movement a couple of years ago after a few years of staying in the closet.

With regards to JW responses, I recall one summer's day about fifteen years ago. My Father was a keen gardener and was tending to his plants when a JW, suited and booted came through the gate and greeted my Dad with 'Good morning Sir, and may I say what a beautiful garden you have. Aren't you grateful that God privileged you with such a fine gift?' To which my Father (a lifelong non believer) replied with 'Well you should have seen the fing state the b***d had left it in before I got here!' The JW politely said farewell and promptly left.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 07:47:16 UTC | #847197

Quetzalcoatlus's Avatar Comment 22 by Quetzalcoatlus

Last time some Witnessses came to my door, I was in a hurry, and I could not receive them. I was looking forward to discuss with them, not to challenge them, but to have an open discussion. I asked them to come back later, but they never came back. They seem to be nice people, and they seem tired of walking around on the hot sun of summer.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 08:01:05 UTC | #847201

Sample's Avatar Comment 23 by Sample

Reading through these comments, I caught myself simultaneously rejecting the JW faith not only because I am an atheist but also a former Catholic. Does anyone else do this? Employ a sort of mental one-two punch to faith based beliefs that are different than your's when you once believed? I've got to stop doing that, it's weird. :-j

Mike

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 08:20:46 UTC | #847210

Dr. monster's Avatar Comment 24 by Dr. monster

a paper back copy of TGD is so cheap now, that it is feasible to give them away like this.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 09:05:11 UTC | #847221

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 25 by Vorlund

I have to say my response depends what mood I'm in. I also show more deference to women witnesses (coz i'm a man and was brought up to believe that it was a serious flaw in men to be disrespectful to women much less upset them).

The last ones that came were soundly beaten but credit where it is due they stood their ground for a good few minutes til they found the position indefensible. I declared my position as antitheistic and perhaps they thought I was not schooled in the bible. I soon led the discourse around to the bit about the inconsitencies in the bible and the mayhem in deuteronomy etc. They immediately proclaimed this was due to lack of or poor interpretation. At which point I delivered the coup de grace that hermeneutics is contrary to their belief that the word of the bible is literal, i.e. it is either true or it isn't and looking for rational reasons makes their faith an imposter. Checkmate! I smiled and closed the door.

I expect to have been blacklisted.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 10:47:45 UTC | #847241

Quetzalcoatlus's Avatar Comment 26 by Quetzalcoatlus

Comment 18 by Vagabond7 :

I was also a JW before I was an atheist. My story is here if anyone is interested.

http://www.freeminds.org/life-stories/rank-file/disfellowshipping-how-it-can-effect-your-life.html

Scissor lizard probably has the most succinct way to deal with them. Unless you really just want to invest in deprogramming them, then just say that you will trade. You will gladly read one of their study books, if they will read "The God Delusion" or "The Greatest Show on Earth" and then in a couple of weeks we can meet again to discuss them. They will refuse, and you can leave them with the question "Why not? It's a sign of intellectual integrity to consider both sides of the story. I'm willing to do so, are you?" and that will be that.

Also no, JWs don't believe that only 23,000 can live in paradise, or that millions are creating competition. Spreading ignorance of their beliefs doesn't help them, it only makes them feel more vindicated (since they have a major persecution complex, even for a christian denomination). They believe only 144,000 will go to heaven and rule over mankind as kings and priests with Jesus, and all other JWs will live on a paradise earth for eternity. Don't ask exactly how that works, because they don't know either. They just assume that maybe we'll stop having babies, and keep busy studying every last insect in great detail....forever.

You own me a beer! Okey.

Look you are the type of chap that will be great to have a beer with!

It is great you were able to go out from that Church, and now you are looking to continue your studies.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 11:29:10 UTC | #847248

Dave H's Avatar Comment 27 by Dave H

The last time I had a Jehovah's witness at the door, I also offered a trade: one of their mags for one of my collections of atheism mp3 files that I burned onto a CD. He declined.

Rather than ask him why he declined, I told him what his declining meant to me: 1) That people who want to tell you their religious opinion rarely want to hear yours, which is unfair, and 2) By not listening to other opinions or evidence he was keeping himself willfully ignorant, which is utterly contemptible behaviour. (Do you think it is better to give them these two answers or to just ask "Why not" and let them find these answers for themselves? )

A different Jehovah's Witness that I met in the street a few months earlier (when I happened to have the CD on me) actually accepted the trade. I sometimes wonder if he actually listened to it or chucked it in the bin.

It's a shame you can't find the guy's house again to thank him. I always talk to Jehovah's Witnesses when they accost me, and they always seem to leave in a mentally besieged state. I've always wondered if I started any of them down the thinking path - it would be nice to get some feedback.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:00:26 UTC | #847333

scissors_lizard's Avatar Comment 28 by scissors_lizard

Comment 27 by Dave H :

Do you think it is better to give them these two answers or to just ask "Why not" and let them find these answers for themselves? )

A different Jehovah's Witness that I met in the street a few months earlier (when I happened to have the CD on me) actually accepted the trade. I sometimes wonder if he actually listened to it or chucked it in the bin.

To the first part, I really don't know. The sad reality is that by the time someone is an adult and still involved with this sort of thing, it's usually a good sign that they just don't want to learn more. For me, leaving me with my own thoughts was what worked, but then who knows whether that would impact someone else the same way.

To the second part, that it definitely a violation of the rules of the Organization. There are three possibilities. 1) he chucked it (likely), 2) he listened to it privately and thought things over (ideal) or 3) he shared it with his peers and was reprimanded for it on some level, even if just being pressured to throw it away.

The Witnesses like to make the rules seem like mere suggestions as long as you're following them, but then when you stop obeying they take any action necessary to "fix" you.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:47:43 UTC | #847358

scissors_lizard's Avatar Comment 29 by scissors_lizard

Comment 23 by Sample :

Reading through these comments, I caught myself simultaneously rejecting the JW faith not only because I am an atheist but also a former Catholic. Does anyone else do this? Employ a sort of mental one-two punch to faith based beliefs that are different than your's when you once believed? I've got to stop doing that, it's weird. :-j

Mike

I do this too, towards other faiths. Religions are very good at programming division, prejudice and guilt into people. To this day I feel guilty for being involved with things that I was taught were wrong, like birthday parties, even though there's no rational reason to.

Comment 22 by Quetzalcoatlus :

Last time some Witnessses came to my door, I was in a hurry, and I could not receive them. I was looking forward to discuss with them, not to challenge them, but to have an open discussion. I asked them to come back later, but they never came back. They seem to be nice people, and they seem tired of walking around on the hot sun of summer.

They mostly are nice people. They are just horribly misguided.

Comment 18 by Vagabond7 :

I was also a JW before I was an atheist. My story is here if anyone is interested.

http://www.freeminds.org/life-stories/rank-file/disfellowshipping-how-it-can-effect-your-life.html

Scissor lizard probably has the most succinct way to deal with them. Unless you really just want to invest in deprogramming them, then just say that you will trade. You will gladly read one of their study books, if they will read "The God Delusion" or "The Greatest Show on Earth" and then in a couple of weeks we can meet again to discuss them. They will refuse, and you can leave them with the question "Why not? It's a sign of intellectual integrity to consider both sides of the story. I'm willing to do so, are you?" and that will be that.

Also no, JWs don't believe that only 23,000 can live in paradise, or that millions are creating competition. Spreading ignorance of their beliefs doesn't help them, it only makes them feel more vindicated (since they have a major persecution complex, even for a christian denomination). They believe only 144,000 will go to heaven and rule over mankind as kings and priests with Jesus, and all other JWs will live on a paradise earth for eternity. Don't ask exactly how that works, because they don't know either. They just assume that maybe we'll stop having babies, and keep busy studying every last insect in great detail....forever.

I agree with every word of this. And it is definitely a question of investment, and of deprogramming. It takes a long long time to shake the effects of immersion and isolation, and that's if you are interested in learning in the first place. And they absolutely do have a persecution complex, and the worst thing you can do is lose your temper or misrepresent the facts because they look for any excuse to vilify non-witnesses.

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:59:25 UTC | #847362

lilalindy's Avatar Comment 30 by lilalindy

It was my birthday recently (three months ago) so instead of not being allowed to talk to them, it was open season.

In front of me stood a respectable-looking West Indian couple in their late fifties.

I started off with getting them to agree to the principle of their god knowing all that is, has been and all that ever will be - this is fairly easy to do.

Then I got them to agree to the principle that man has free will - again, easy.

Then, I pointed out to them that it could not be that both statements were true.

The dynamic of what followed was interesting.

He liked to agree that he could see what I was getting at (whatever I said) and she liked to stick to what it said in the Bible.

A lot more went on, obviously, but I think it said more about their relationship with each other than anything else.

It ended up with her dragging him away (metaphorically).

That was a nice birthday present - a coincidence set up at the beginning of the universe to play out like that >;-> I wonder what else is in-store.

A few days ago, she came back with someone else - he was nowhere to be seen.

I wonder if they are still together. ;-)

Thu, 07 Jul 2011 16:10:18 UTC | #847365