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← Support petition stop state schools using religion to discriminate against children

Support petition stop state schools using religion to discriminate against children - Comments

jel's Avatar Comment 1 by jel

Signed.

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:52:17 UTC | #862144

MadEd's Avatar Comment 2 by MadEd

Signed, and good luck.

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:08:27 UTC | #862149

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 3 by SomersetJohn

Signed

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:12:30 UTC | #862151

Inquisitor Mence's Avatar Comment 4 by Inquisitor Mence

Signed

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:39:52 UTC | #862157

gordon's Avatar Comment 5 by gordon

Signed

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:41:29 UTC | #862184

martiannikki's Avatar Comment 6 by martiannikki

If the school is classed as a church of England school in this way then sorry to say that it cannot be classed as a state school. It can be either one, or the other, and a church of England school (one whose funding is partly provided by the church) is allowed to discriminate in this way, as is any other faith school. Though at the moment any christian school usually has provision to educate a percentage of non christian children (atheist or other faith child) this is a matter organised by the school board in conjunction with the diocese. The school will normally give priority to a certain percentage of Christians who follow their particular 'flavour' of Christianity, then a smaller percent of people who are other Christians then the last, smallest percent, who are of no faith or non christian faith. It is bad that there seems to be no local state school to you and you are therefore put in the very bizarre position of either having your kids go to a faith based school, or to have them travel miles away to a state school, I'm guessing from this that you live in a more rural area, where the state have amalgamated (read, cut) the schools to one larger school supposed to cater for a larger area, which, you are rightly concerned about the practicality of having your children attend. It does mean that particular in rural areas there can be discrimination against children whose parents are not religious, but hell, you could always lie to get around this, many parents do. You shouldn't have to, and if we had a country where faith schools were not allowed, and were not supported and provided most of their funding by the state, you wouldn't have to. So I'm in favour of having a rethink on the whole matter of allowing there to be faith based schools in this country, and yes, you guessed it by now I'm sure, my opinion is that religion has no place in our state education system at all. Full stop. Let's campaign for the total secularisation of education!

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:51:17 UTC | #862186

lilalindy's Avatar Comment 7 by lilalindy

I thought that discriminating against somebody on the grounds of religion was against the universal declaration of human rights -

Article 2.

  • Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. ...
  • Didn't the UK/England/whatever sign up to this?

    I know that the Muslims had to write their own because so much of the equality stuff in it goes against Islam (4:34 et al) and they made some claim about the UDHR being Judeo Christian (just to try to bring religion into it). Has the CofE got its own version as well?

    Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:21:34 UTC | #862230

    Stevehill's Avatar Comment 8 by Stevehill

    @Comment 6

    If the school is classed as a church of England school in this way then sorry to say that it cannot be classed as a state school. It can be either one, or the other, and a church of England school (one whose funding is partly provided by the church) is allowed to discriminate in this way, as is any other faith school.

    Um, it's far more complicated than that, but yes, they are state schools (in the UK). There are also non-state faith schools. State faith schools are divided between voluntary controlled (the majority), where the local education authority controls admissions without regard to the church's input, and voluntary aided, where the church can determine admission criteria (but is often happy not to do so and to let the LEA decide). All Cathoilic schools are voluntary aided, and all choose to control admissions criteria; ditto I think the Jewish, Muslim and Hindu ones.

    Only a minority of CofE schools require "vicar's letters". The CofE's head of education the Bishop of Oxford, said earlier this year he thought the CofE should make 90% of places available to non-church members. (Boards of Governors of individual schools are however free to ignore this wisdom).

    It's different in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    If you want a good grounding on faith schools in the UK check out or better still join/support the Accord Coalition, led by religionists, who agree the current system stinks. It includes trades unions (including teaching unions) and secularists.

    Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:56:28 UTC | #862243

    martiannikki's Avatar Comment 9 by martiannikki

    Comment 8 by Stevehill :

    Um, it's far more complicated than that, but yes, they are state schools (in the UK). There are also non-state faith schools. State faith schools are divided between voluntary controlled (the majority), where the local education authority controls admissions without regard to the church's input, and voluntary aided, where the church can determine admission criteria (but is often happy not to do so and to let the LEA decide).

    Bloody hell that's appalling... I thought we were more advanced than that, will definitely sign your petition, I thought the whole point behind state schools was that they were meant to be non discriminatory educational establishments for all our young people, also as it is law that your child must attend school and gain education this is just another example of the church being allowed into the state where it has no place.

    Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:34:46 UTC | #862255

    educationsaves's Avatar Comment 10 by educationsaves

    Wish I could sign your petition but I am from Canada. This is proof that religion is evil. Can you imagine a God that would be OK with children being discriminated against because their parents go to the wrong church. Only man cares, and yet there are whole books sold by religion that tell us to do just this or worse.

    Thu, 18 Aug 2011 18:19:36 UTC | #862274

    hawinheja's Avatar Comment 11 by hawinheja

    Signed

    Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:07:04 UTC | #862334

    Greyman's Avatar Comment 12 by Greyman

    Comment 9 by martiannikki :

    Comment 8 by Stevehill :

    Um, it's far more complicated than that, but yes, they are state schools (in the UK). There are also non-state faith schools. State faith schools are divided between voluntary controlled (the majority), where the local education authority controls admissions without regard to the church's input, and voluntary aided, where the church can determine admission criteria (but is often happy not to do so and to let the LEA decide).

    Bloody hell that's appalling... I thought we were more advanced than that, will definitely sign your petition, I thought the whole point behind state schools was that they were meant to be non discriminatory educational establishments for all our young people, also as it is law that your child must attend school and gain education this is just another example of the church being allowed into the state where it has no place.

    That's the way it works here in Australia; where there's a clear distinction between the state schools, which are are secular, and the independent schools, which mostly faith run (mainly Catholic). Well, sure, independent schools receive state funding, but at there's no church input into state schools. Well, except for the chaplaincy issue. Okay, maybe not so clear. But it should be.

    Good luck with the campaign.

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 01:30:25 UTC | #862366

    besleybean's Avatar Comment 13 by besleybean

    Forgot to come back to say I signed!

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 06:34:32 UTC | #862401

    AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 14 by AtheistEgbert

    57 signatures.

    Cmon guys, this is clearly not working. There have been several e-petitions put up the last few weeks, all of them had good intentions, none are effective. They're not going to get anywhere near 100,000 signatures, and we need to face up to that.

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:16:03 UTC | #862415

    ruffordcc's Avatar Comment 15 by ruffordcc

    It is a national disgrace that this practice continues, and there are many more examples. My niece attended a Roman Catholic college where bus travel to and from the college was free to Roman Catholics only. Can you imagine the outcry if similar priviledges were extended to white people only, or heterosexually orientated people only. I wonder how one proves one is indeed a Roman Catholic, perhaps a complete lack of free will and evidence of having been sexually abused by a priest would get you your free bus pass. I have signed your petition without hesitation, good luck with it

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:35:46 UTC | #862428

    branwellm's Avatar Comment 16 by branwellm

    Hi guys

    Thanks for the comments and the signatures.

    I am realistic in that I don't really expect this to achieve the 100k it needs but I thought that I would give it a go. I would guess that most people would agree that it is wrong but I don't think that it is an emotive enough issue to create a groundswell of opinion.

    Interesting comments above about faith schools. As far as I am aware, this is a state-school and I have also heard anecdotal comments from an ex-head of a C of E primary school that many state faith schools get nothing from the church as the church is broke. Look at how often they have to raise money for their roofs! I would be very interested to see the accounts of schools that allegedly get funding from the church to see exactly what they do get.

    Just to give further background, I do live in a fairly rural area, but not that rural. There has not been any amalgamation of schools in the area as far as I am aware and in fact, the majority of the state primary schools in the area are C of E. It is a fairly affluent area so there are also many private schools.

    My son actually got into the school last year and I'm hoping my daughter will too but I was still horrified to read that kids whose parents go to the local church get priority. I cannot see any justification what so ever and genuinely see it as discrimination. Although I am an atheist, I could just as easily be Hindu or Muslim and still be discriminated against.

    I'm not entirely against faith schools as such as, although I don't believe in god at all, I do think that the moral message that the children are taught is of value, as long as they are not indoctrinated. I do have to hold my tongue when my son starts to talk about Jesus but as far as he is concerned, he is just as real as a transformer or a Jedi. However, for schools to use religion to discriminate is so wrong I cannot fathom why it is allowed in the UK.

    Anyway, thanks again for the support. Please feel free to pass the link on.

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:45:17 UTC | #862431

    Simon Templar's Avatar Comment 17 by Simon Templar

    It is a national disgrace that this practice continues, and there are many more examples. My niece attended a Roman Catholic college where bus travel to and from the college was free to Roman Catholics only. Can you imagine the outcry if similar priviledges were extended to white people only, or heterosexually orientated people only. I wonder how one proves one is indeed a Roman Catholic, perhaps a complete lack of free will and evidence of having been sexually abused by a priest would get you your free bus pass. I have signed your petition without hesitation, good luck with it.

    A batismal certificate is usually acceptable proof that one is a Catholic. Also coming from a Catholic primary 'feeder' school might bump you up the list.

    Usually bus travel is paid if there is no acceptable alternative school available within a given radius( 3 miles where I live). If there was a non Catholic school within this range then as a non Catholic your niece would not be entitled to bus fare subsidy if she elected to go to the farther Catholic one instead. If not - investigate. I chose a Catholic school 5 miles away in preference to one Catholic and 2 non Catholic ones less than 2 miles away. I was therfore not entitled to bus fare subsidy whereas Catholic and non Catholic pupils travelling from the north of the school, a rural area, all get free travel to both Catholic and non Catholic schools in the town as there are no secondary schools within a 3 mile radius.

    Of course if we abolish Faith Schools then this apparent discrimination would disappear but your niece might have something to say about that !

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:53:37 UTC | #862455

    sunbeamforjeebus's Avatar Comment 18 by sunbeamforjeebus

    Signed.Good luck

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:15:47 UTC | #862459

    hawinheja's Avatar Comment 19 by hawinheja

    I think it would work better if we informed our friends and encourage them to sign by explaining reasons. otherwise reaching the target will be quite difficult

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:31:21 UTC | #862465

    aquilacane's Avatar Comment 20 by aquilacane

    A scribble on the matter of religious discrimination. Not very exciting though.

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:15:06 UTC | #862491

    aldous's Avatar Comment 21 by aldous

    Comment 6 by martiannikki If the school is classed as a church of England school in this way then sorry to say that it cannot be classed as a state school

    This is factually incorrect, as has been pointed out above. The UK government site explains the system in England and Wales.

    "The four main types of state school all receive funding from local authorities. They all follow the National Curriculum and are regularly inspected by Ofsted.

    Community schools, Foundation and Trust schools,Voluntary-aided schools are mainly religious or 'faith' schools Voluntary-controlled schools are similar to voluntary aided schools, but are run by the local authority. ...School land and buildings are normally owned by a charity, often a religious organisation, which also appoints some of the members of the governing body."

    link text

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:01:52 UTC | #862519

    aldous's Avatar Comment 22 by aldous

    the system in England and Wales

    .Actually, just in England. What goes on in Wales?

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:40:00 UTC | #862530

    Rich Wiltshir's Avatar Comment 23 by Rich Wiltshir

    Glad to say that I've signed and have added the link to my email signature.

    Religion poisons.

    Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:56:51 UTC | #862546

    Zach1217's Avatar Comment 24 by Zach1217

    "Where I live, the ONLY state primary school is C of E (Church of England) affiliated and, as such, children whose parents go to the local church get priority over my children when places are allocated.

    When i first read this i was disgusted.

    Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:22:37 UTC | #862662

    Woodworm's Avatar Comment 25 by Woodworm

    Ah tiddlywinks! I was going to sign but I can't agree with the comment about private schools. I don't believe private schools should be allowed to discriminate on the basis of parents' claimed faith. What that means is that the school teaches that faith as fact.

    A school should teach the truth - and by that, I mean what the general concensus on the truth is for the subject concerned. So, we teach what historians think history is, we teach what scientists think is the truth about the nature of the the physical world etc. When it comes to religion, the best that the general concensus can say is that there is no consensus. So, that is what should be taught. Teach children about different religions, and the fact that not everyone has one, and leave it at that.

    Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:50:03 UTC | #862670

    Ian Edmond's Avatar Comment 26 by Ian Edmond

    Woodworm, if you have a problem with this petition, you could sign my alternative version. I tried to keep mine snappy and to the point, just focusing on the fairness aspect, and only refering to state funding of schools with discriminatory admission policies.

    (Not that I have a problem with the version in this thread, and if I'd known about it I may well have not bothered with mine, but the e-petitions system keeps new petitions in a queue for a week or so, and there is a fair bit of duplication as a result.)

    Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:40:00 UTC | #862738

    Woodworm's Avatar Comment 27 by Woodworm

    Thanks Ian,

    I've signed yours. Though can I invite you to think about changing your mind on private "faith" schools and discrimination on the basis of parents' claimed faith? Schooling in the UK is compulsory and that schooling should not include the teaching of lies. It cannot be right to allow parents to opt their children out of that schooling. If someone wants to teach a largely unaccepted belief to their child, OK, but NOT in school.

    Throwing in a different argument, would it be acceptable for a private school to discrimiante on the grounds of race? If not, why would it be acceptable for it to discriminate on the basis of parents' faith?

    Sat, 20 Aug 2011 21:41:44 UTC | #862843

    Anshuman's Avatar Comment 28 by Anshuman

    i live in India so i suppose i can`t sign but you have my full support.

    Sun, 21 Aug 2011 05:59:58 UTC | #862909

    Ian Edmond's Avatar Comment 29 by Ian Edmond

    Woodworm, it's not that I don't agree with what you say. It is just that I wanted to create a simple petition that deals with one issue that I hoped would be easy for a wide range of people to support.

    Sun, 21 Aug 2011 06:09:54 UTC | #862911

    aldous's Avatar Comment 30 by aldous

    Schooling in the UK is compulsory and that schooling should not include the teaching of lies. Comment 27 by Woodworm

    There are differences of opinon about what is true. On grounds of freedom of religion, there must be an opportunity for religious organizations to fund their own schools.

    Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:10:26 UTC | #862989