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The 'Witch Children' Condemned by Christians - Comments

zengardener's Avatar Comment 1 by zengardener

Once the crazy gets in, there is no telling where it will go.

These people are evil (socially dysfunctional, delusional, psychos). At least that is my amateur opinion.

But what I wonder is this: How would these people behave in a society that overwhelmingly rejects supernatural explanations?

Sun, 04 Mar 2012 22:53:55 UTC | #924454

RDfan's Avatar Comment 2 by RDfan

There's a documentary called Kidonki Child Sorcerers that deals with this. And, yes, there are Christian churches that promote this evil practice, but there are other Christian churches that are trying to help children suffering from it. Witchcraft preceded Christianity. It may well have been blended with Christian belief, but it does have a life of its own too.

Sun, 04 Mar 2012 23:21:42 UTC | #924460

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 3 by AtheistEgbert

Scapegoating is pretty much well known nowadays, but since religion gets special protection from being criticized and condemned for being insane, then the crazies just go ahead and scapegoat whomever they want. If it's not militant secularists, or atheists, or gays, then it's little kids. It goes on and on and on, and anyone who dares criticize religion is an intolerant racist who must be locked up.

Sun, 04 Mar 2012 23:35:27 UTC | #924469

Dr. monster's Avatar Comment 4 by Dr. monster

if people accept one kind of crack-potery then they are likely to accept other forms of it too. i remember watching a documentery about the 911 "truthers" they were all jeasus worshipers. i wasn't the least bit surprised

Sun, 04 Mar 2012 23:39:00 UTC | #924472

Tvergastein's Avatar Comment 5 by Tvergastein

Well turns out this sort of thing is going on even in the most secular country in the world, Sweden. Pastors and parents charged with tortur

I couldn't find a good english language newssite, but the story have been widely reported in both Swedish and Norwegian media.

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 07:39:48 UTC | #924528

hitchens_jnr's Avatar Comment 6 by hitchens_jnr

In the newspaper coverage relating to this case I came across, for the first time, the phrase "faith-based abuse". I'm still not sure what to make of that phrase, but I have a feeling I'll be reading it increasingly often, especially now that the police and local authorities actually seem like they might start taking a serious interest in what these appalling churches are doing.

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:05:22 UTC | #924533

RDfan's Avatar Comment 7 by RDfan

Indeed, comment 6 by hitchens_jnr. I too have come across the phrase "faith-based abuse". It was used in a 2010 Guardian newspaper article on witch-craft and children. The article also talks about what the Churches have done to tackle this kind of abuse/killing, in answer to the OP's question.

Like many on this site, I can't help but feel that the Churches are part of the problem, not part of the solution (especially because they promote "faith-based initiatives" in the first place). But we have to give them their dues, if or when it is deserved.

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:27 UTC | #924539

hitchens_jnr's Avatar Comment 8 by hitchens_jnr

Comment 7 by RDfan :

Indeed, comment 6 by hitchens_jnr. I too have come across the phrase "faith-based abuse". It was used in a 2010 Guardian newspaper article on witch-craft and children. The article also talks about what the Churches have done to tackle this kind of abuse/killing, in answer to the OP's question.

Like many on this site, I can't help but feel that the Churches are part of the problem, not part of the solution (especially because they promote "faith-based initiatives" in the first place). But we have to give them their dues, if or when it is deserved.

Although I feel slightly queazy saying this, I think that given the severity of these barbaric witch-murders we actually really need the moderate religious people to step up now. The kind of people who hold the sort of beliefs that would lead them to do this are probably more likely to listen to religious figures than to anyone else. This is where we need the moderate Christian leaders, from African churches as well as any other sort of churches, to stop whingeing about being "persecuted" and speak out, loudly and clearly, about why this is wrong. I wonder how "ecumenical" they're all feeling towards these people right now. As long as they sit back doing nothing while this kind of thing goes on within their own poxy faith, nobody else should take a word they have to say about morality seriously.

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:40:23 UTC | #924543

ShinobiYaka's Avatar Comment 9 by ShinobiYaka

As Voltaire said;

those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:01:12 UTC | #924572

thebaldgit's Avatar Comment 10 by thebaldgit

I too have found it strange that during this appalling murder and torture case the church's position in all of this has been conveniently forgotten, without their mumbo-jumbo non of this would happen.

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:22:24 UTC | #924578

pinball's Avatar Comment 11 by pinball

Depressing and shocking.

Every time one of them or a group of them goes on the rampage they are either insane or not Christian.

Did the papers even mention the Christian part much?

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:40:25 UTC | #924583

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 12 by Alan4discussion

Comment 8 by hitchens_jnr

This is where we need the moderate Christian leaders, from African churches as well as any other sort of churches, to stop whingeing about being "persecuted" and speak out, loudly and clearly, about why this is wrong. I wonder how "ecumenical" they're all feeling towards these people right now.

I would not count on this church to help very much!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/harry-potter/8915691/Harry-Potter-and-yoga-are-evil-says-Catholic-Church-exorcist.html

Father Gabriele Amorth, who for years was the Vatican’s chief exorcist and claims to have cleansed hundreds of people of evil spirits, said yoga is Satanic because it leads to a worship of Hinduism and “all eastern religions are based on a false belief in reincarnation”.

Reading JK Rowling’s Harry Potter books is no less dangerous, said the 86-year-old priest, who is the honorary president for life of the International Association of Exorcists, which he founded in 1990, and whose favourite film is the 1973 horror classic, The Exorcist.

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:00:17 UTC | #924644

Gary W. Longsine's Avatar Comment 13 by Gary W. Longsine

Comment 1 by zengardener :

"But what I wonder is this: How would these people behave in a society that overwhelmingly rejects supernatural explanations?"

I'm not sure what society you refer to, but it wouldn't appear to be the modern western democratic nation of the United States, where the lunacy of exorcism appears to be making a comeback.

Lady Apostle Helen Ukpabio comes to Texas

For Catholics, Interest in Exorcism is Revived [New York Times 2011]

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:04:07 UTC | #924646

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 14 by xmaseveeve

If this murder had been carried out by a Muslim, the word Muslim would (quite rightly) have been in every headline. TV news reports would use the term 'so-called honour killing'. There would be a Muslim spokesperson in the studio. On the BBC and Sky News, not one mention was there of the fact that these muderers are Christians, who killed in the name of Christianity. Why?

I think the worst pastors have been Pentecostal, but I do agree that all varieties of Christians should speak up. Why the feck are the Archbishop of this and Cardinal that going around talking about bums? That's the burning issue? What have they got to say about Christian torture and child murder? What is the Pope saying?

The murdered boy's father said that the man should have called the police as soon as he suspected the boy was a witch! The boy repeatedly phoned his father and begged for help, saying this maniac was going to kill him, but his father refused to listen. I think a few questions are left hanging here. The father said that he trusted the uncle not to 'cross the line'. What did that mean? Have the Paris police asked him? Would they have done if he were a Muslim?

I watched 'The Exorcism of Emily Rose' again last night. No spoilers, but it's a true story of a Catholic priest charged with reckless homicide when a young girl died after days of torture and starvation during an exorcism. (The defence actually blamed her epilepsy medicine for her death because it had calmed her mind in such a way that God couldn't reach her during the exorcism.) Also see 'The Last Exorcism', about a fake (!) exorcist.

There are hexes which pimps pay for to force women into prostitution, and to keep quiet wherever they are shipped to. The terror of facing what happened to this poor boy can make people go along with anything. How about this; 'Thou shalt not suffer a Christian to murder for Jesus'? Forget bums.

Here's Sky News at 5pm. The two scumbags were sentenced today. Several news items in now, and no mention yet. Internet fraud now. Incredibly detailed report, more like a documentary. No Christian murderers then. What planet did this happen on? Oh, and there it was.

The two mugshots, side by side like Brady and Hindley, a very brief report and a mention of a forthcoming documentary on kindoku (sp?), using the words 'curse', 'witch' and Africa, but not the word 'Christian'. BBC News reported earlier that the judge said the killing was 'sadistic'. It's sick to think of the extra kick they got out of doing it for Jesus. Sanctioned sadism. Church leaders - no more turning the other cheek and the other ear on behalf of the rest of humanity.

BBC News 24 at 6pm now. No mention - at all - in the headlines. There it was - blink and you've missed it. Two sadistic killers get their just desserts - isn't the world wonderful? All the bum bummers can sink back into their complacent hypocrisy as the storm passes - that was close! We got away with that one!

Don't read that 'dangerous' Harry Potter? I thought they were works of fiction. Those books teach more morality than a thousand holey books. That frilly cardinal - dressed, appropriately enough, as Little Bo Peep - having the cheek to talk about gay folk? Ooh, get her!

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 18:23:23 UTC | #924669

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 15 by xmaseveeve

Channel 4 News, 7pm - again, bare bones report; no mention of the word Christian.

Mon, 05 Mar 2012 19:27:33 UTC | #924688

WilliamH's Avatar Comment 16 by WilliamH

To me this is an prime example of what happens when "a scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world" is lacking; nothing more, nothing less. I also wouldn't expect any sensitive or palliative comment from other religious groups - They surely are just another part of the same problem.

It also suspect that a prison sentence is only going serve to compound the issue, and might even be percieved as further evidence of being 'bewitched' or even as a form of martyrdom.

Perhaps being sententenced to the sort of that education this website proposes is part of the answer, but it begs the question as to how someone might cope when they understand the full implications of what they have done.

The problem with rational thinking and evidence based understanding is that it brings with it an increased responsibility for one's actions. You can't blame some imaginary force or influence for your perceived misfortune - only your own lack of knowledge or indolence.

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 10:23:43 UTC | #924813

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 17 by Alan4discussion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17255470

Witchcraft murder: Couple jailed for Kristy Bamu killing - 5 March 2012 Last updated at 15:08

A couple who tortured and murdered a 15-year-old boy they accused of using witchcraft have been jailed for life.

Here is the latest on this crime:-

Kristy's father, Pierre, had previously said in a statement: "I feel betrayed. To know that Kristy's own sister, Magalie, did nothing to save him makes the pain that much worse."

Scotland Yard said it had investigated 83 cases involving abuse resulting from ritualistic or faith-based beliefs over the last 10 years.

Det Supt Terry Sharpe said: "The sentencing reflected the brutality and sadistic cruelty inflicted on Kristy in the days leading up to his death.

"This is a hidden and under-reported crime and therefore difficult to deal with in terms of protecting potential victims from harm."

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 11:28:44 UTC | #924825

john buff's Avatar Comment 18 by john buff

Yes, this is all very well, but as we all know, Jesus suffered for our sins too. I have a little old lady living next door, she looks a bit like a witch to me, so I'm going to force a twelve inch spike down her throat and burn her arms with a cigarette, until she repents. That should do it, problem solved! I don't see why everyone gets so hot under the collar, trying to solve things using science and reason is just plain silly to me. There, I've done it, one less pesky witch to worry about, sorry, must dash, I can hear a siren, think I think I'll go and hide, er, seek sanctuary in the church.

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 11:29:49 UTC | #924826

pinball's Avatar Comment 19 by pinball

Comment 14 by xmaseveeve If this murder had been carried out by a Muslim, the word Muslim would (quite rightly) have been in every headline. TV news reports would use the term 'so-called honour killing'. There would be a Muslim spokesperson in the studio. On the BBC and Sky News, not one mention was there of the fact that these muderers are Christians, who killed in the name of Christianity. Why?

Dismissing these murderers as either mindless savages or insane lunatics rather than Christian extremists more palatable to the UK press and public.

A lot of Christians in the press, commons and house of lords that would rather not see the Christian label branded too much in the headlines.

Not sure what that idiot Warsi’s view would be on this, she may want to bring witches “into the public sphere” to counter the recent “militant secularism” that has been stifling the UK.

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 13:57:13 UTC | #924843

hitchens_jnr's Avatar Comment 20 by hitchens_jnr

Comment 19 by pinball :

Comment 14 by xmaseveeve If this murder had been carried out by a Muslim, the word Muslim would (quite rightly) have been in every headline. TV news reports would use the term 'so-called honour killing'. There would be a Muslim spokesperson in the studio. On the BBC and Sky News, not one mention was there of the fact that these muderers are Christians, who killed in the name of Christianity. Why?

Dismissing these murderers as either mindless savages or insane lunatics rather than Christian extremists more palatable to the UK press and public.

A lot of Christians in the press, commons and house of lords that would rather not see the Christian label branded too much in the headlines.

Not sure what that idiot Warsi’s view would be on this, she may want to bring witches “into the public sphere” to counter the recent “militant secularism” that has been stifling the UK.

From what I know of real-life witches (Wiccans), they're very muddle-headed but essentially benign. They'd never torture a child to death. It takes a religion with a real propensity towards sadism to make someone do a thing like that.

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 15:59:07 UTC | #924865

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 21 by xmaseveeve

Yes, it's a shame for all the harmless old hippies who think they're white witches. The Wiccans should protest to Offcom about religious misrepresentation. I'm serious. It's the old hippies in the dresses with doilies and crosses on them who are getting away with murder.

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:45:15 UTC | #924877

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 22 by Schrodinger's Cat

These halfwits torture, beat, maim and kill these children because of 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' - in the BIBLE.

After reading up on this story.......I could find no reference anywhere to what this couple did being based on the Bible, and considerable reference to African witchcraft terms such as kindoki and tribal beliefs that predate Christianity by a long way. Getting facts right is an important part of being able to condemn organisations such as the Catholic church for what we know they do get up to.

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:38:50 UTC | #924887

hitchens_jnr's Avatar Comment 23 by hitchens_jnr

Comment 22 by Schrodinger's Cat :

These halfwits torture, beat, maim and kill these children because of 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' - in the BIBLE.

After reading up on this story.......I could find no reference anywhere to what this couple did being based on the Bible, and considerable reference to African witchcraft terms such as kindoki and tribal beliefs that predate Christianity by a long way. Getting facts right is an important part of being able to condemn organisations such as the Catholic church for what we know they do get up to.

From the article linked above:

"The defendants originally came from the Democratic Republic of Congo, where witchcraft or sorcery - called kindoki - is practised in some churches.

But African witchcraft expert Dr Richard Hoskins made it clear to the court there was no provision in Congolese life and culture for the maltreatment and abuse of children.

Prosecutor Brian Altman, QC, said that taken out of the church's control, kindoki could "take on a feral and indeed evil character, as we suggest it did here".

So there clearly is some church involvement here, though perhaps surprisingly these churches aren't following the words of the Bible, but encouraging witchcraft in their own services! I wonder if we have any "African witchcraft experts" on the board who can enlighten us on the relationship between Christianity and kindoki in Congo?

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:31:10 UTC | #924926

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 24 by Schrodinger's Cat

Comment 23 by hitchens_jnr

"The defendants originally came from the Democratic Republic of Congo, where witchcraft or sorcery - called kindoki - is practised in some churches.

Sure....many natives practice a mixture of traditional beliefs and Christianity, primarily because the traditional beliefs are hard to get rid of. It's a constant theme throughout Judaism, Christianity, and Islam....the extent to which the new religions came along and simply got poured into the mould of an existing one.

I lived in NIgeria when I was younger, and one of the things I soon grasped was the extent of poverty and how people will worship any god that can feed them......before going right back to the tribal beliefs.

My own dad had a tribal curse put on him....which didn't seem to be that effective as he lived many years after that and died in his 80s.

Tue, 06 Mar 2012 20:49:18 UTC | #924955

RDfan's Avatar Comment 25 by RDfan

@ Schrodinger's Cat and hitchens_jnr:

I would say this: religion is institutionalized witch-craft.

I'm not well versed on Kidonki in the Congo. In Uganda, there is certainly a varied mixture of local witch-craft and institutionalized witch-craft (Islam/Christianity). Both of them (religion/witch-craft), however, can exist independently of the other, and have done in the past. Does the same apply in the Congo? I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Wed, 07 Mar 2012 01:35:37 UTC | #925032

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 26 by Ignorant Amos

A prime example of this bollocks is the RCC and Voodoo.....West African, Louisiana, Haitian, etc,...Catholicism is up to it's armpits in all this woo woo, Voodoo caper.

All these are syncretized with Christianity and the traditional religions of the Kongo people of Congo and Angola.

Scruples? Christianity is a whore that will dive under the sheets with any religious Tom, Dick or Harry.

VODUN

Wed, 07 Mar 2012 01:51:30 UTC | #925037

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 27 by xmaseveeve

ShrdCat, do you not think the Bible made their witchy beliefs a million times worse - validated them, ratified them? Now they were doing it for Jesus. Did you read about the Christian (Pentecostal) pastors who have encouraged these exorcisms and even passed death sentences? (You can see the witch in the eyes, say the scum, but it's their own feckin reflection - any bastard who can torture a child to death to save its soul for Jesus.)

Yes, the poverty is so bad that people blame innocent women and children (usually) for disease and death. It creates an illusion of at least some control over their situation, while Christianity creates more poverty to be 'always' with us. (I like the character Jesus and think he was being ironic, going by the context.)

When exorcism 'fails', the slogan is, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'. Did you never watch 'Cracker'? 'Oranges are Not the Only Fruit'? (Sorry, know they're fiction, but written full of truth -been boozing.) Now, not only is it permissable to kill 'witches', but it's your religious duty.

Amos is right (always a safe bet) about the highly adaptive and accommodating super- virus, Christianity. Back tomorrow, Shrody, when I sober up. You know I love your posts and I'm puzzled (and pissled) by this one. Let's tease it out. Silly arses cursing your dad - double dumb ass them. Love you all, babies!

Wed, 07 Mar 2012 03:18:16 UTC | #925048

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 28 by xmaseveeve

Amos, I think that exorcism has always been the sexiest part of Christianity, the front line. How can actual 'exorcists'' favourite film be 'The Exorcist'? My God, what? They believe this shit. Not just for, as apologists claim, the placebo effect, but medication meant God couldn't reach the person - actual defence - couldnae make it up.

MURDER, simple. But, showing stigmata, letters on their torsoes and speaking in ancient Armenian? My exboyfriend spoke in tongues after 10 pints and six whiskies.

Gaslight going on here. Letters being jumbled up - time for bed, said Zebedee. I never leave it.

Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:21:59 UTC | #925061

pinball's Avatar Comment 29 by pinball

comment 26 by I Amos

Scruples? Christianity is a whore that will dive under the sheets with any religious Tom, Dick or Harry

Agreed and yet the Christian label still managed to evade most of the headlines..

Wed, 07 Mar 2012 08:55:40 UTC | #925078

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 30 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Wed, 07 Mar 2012 10:33:15 UTC | #925093