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Easter in a Catholic hospital - Comments

Sample's Avatar Comment 1 by Sample

Or do you have ideas how we can move forward to get rid of the religious aspect of hospitals?

I don't know the laws in Germany, but here in the US, religious hospitals abound.

The problem of faith in hospitals is an undiscovered country for secular activists. In my own town we have a public hospital owned by the Borough. Upon entry, part of the registration process is to confirm a patient's "religious preference." The question asked is, "do you have a religious preference?"

If a patient says, "Catholic," the code on the electronic medical record is CAT. If a patient replies, Christian, the code is CHR. Mormon becomes LDS, and so on. If a patient replies no, the code is NONE which prints out as No Preference. Anyone can see that none and no preference are two different things. Atheist is an option, but when the question is framed as a yes or no, "do you have a religious preference" one can see that responding with atheist implies atheism is a religion. And it's not like people are given a list to choose from. People overwhelmingly respond, no. By the way, all newborns and children are automatically labeled the religion of their parents without asking.

There is a daily census printed out with these religious codes that are available for visiting chaplains. I recently asked the volunteer coordinator if a secular minister or atheist representative could volunteer for the Chaplain Board and was told no. I was told that nurses fulfill the role of "ministering" to people of no faith so there was no need to have a specific chaplain of no faith to be on the Chaplain Board. I had an hour long discussion with this volunteer chaplain coordinator on the finer points of her ignorance to no avail.

And this is in a government owned hospital. I am not against chaplains being available for patients who request them, but the default position here is that a chaplain will seek patients out, not the other way around and I think that's wrong.

Thank you for bringing up this topic, I had long considered making this a discussion topic as well. Faith in hospitals is an untouched battleground for secularism and I would urge everyone to inquire as to their own public hospital's chaplaincy program and how it's structured.

Mike

PS. Glad your Mom had a successful recovery.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:59:25 UTC | #933594

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 2 by QuestioningKat

All hospitals or ERs that I have visited ask "religion." It didn't matter if it was a Catholic, community hospital or large teaching hospital. I've never been asked "religious preference." Except for the Catholic name of the hospital, I have found no real difference between the quality of care. Hospital care is seriously competitive in my city, larger more world renowned hospitals are running the show. Individual hospitals need to be on their toes at all times in order to survive.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:19:30 UTC | #933596

Bishopess's Avatar Comment 3 by Bishopess

Here in Finland all hospitals are non-religious. Thankfully. So women who need life-saving abortion are not left to die.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:29:31 UTC | #933597

debonnesnouvelles's Avatar Comment 4 by debonnesnouvelles

Comment 1 by Sample :

... The question asked is, "do you have a religious preference?"

If a patient says, "Catholic," the code on the electronic medical record is CAT. If a patient replies, Christian, the code is CHR. Mormon becomes LDS, and so on. If a patient replies no, the code is NONE which prints out as No Preference. ...

And this is in a government owned hospital. I am not against chaplains being available for patients who request them, but the default position here is that a chaplain will seek patients out, not the other way around and I think that's wrong...

Thank you for your comment. I am, probably naively, shocked about the religious preference question in your hospital. And I agree totally with your view that it should be the patients deciding whether or not they want to ask for any kind of religious assistance, and not the other way around, that is to say, if they are in a condition to do so.

Just because someone is regarded as belonging to a particular faith ("ticking the christian box" because one was baptized) doesn't mean they actually ask for all the religious trimmings that come with it.

While all of this is objectionable, I find the most worrying is this:

Consider an emergency situation where your loved one is brought to the nearest hospital. (If you don't have any faith based hospitals in your town, imagine you're on holiday somewhere else). You have no choice in the matter, the ambulance chooses to go to the nearest appropriate hospital. I assume that is the same in other countries, no?

If you then end up in a faith based hospital and you have to deal with a very difficult situation, not only do you have to shrug off the religious symbolism all around you, but you have to ask yourself whether or not the medical staff make their choices based on the best medical knowledge they have or based on their own personal conscience and faith.

And you never asked for having to ask yourself this, you ended up in this place out of no fault of your own.

The resulting wish in my mind is that no emergency unit in ANY HOSPITAL should have any religious affiliation written all over it. Or is that asking for too much?

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:12:03 UTC | #933627

debonnesnouvelles's Avatar Comment 5 by debonnesnouvelles

Comment 2 by QuestioningKat :

... I have found no real difference between the quality of care...

So sorry I gave a wrong impression. On the contrary, the care was outstanding! The nurse chanting at my mum's bedside also did a splendid performance on her mouth organ. It really was a spectacle to die for and Monty Python couldn't have done a better job of it.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:33:32 UTC | #933636

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 6 by Red Dog

My mom told me an interesting story about Catholic hospitals recently. It was always a bit of a puzzle to me why my mom and her siblings (and later me as a result) were brought up Catholic rather than Protestant. Her mother was Protestant and her Father was Catholic but he had no interest in religion and my grandmother was one of those women who pretty much ruled the home and all kinds of decisions like that.

It turns out when my mom was very young they took her to a Catholic hospital. At one point the nuns thought she might die so they baptized her and gave her last rites. She survived but after the nuns told my grandparents that since she had now been baptized Catholic for the sake of her soul she had to be brought up Catholic. My grandparents believed them and since it would have been too much of a hassle to raise one child Catholic and the rest Protestant decided all the kids would be Catholic.

What amazed me about the story is that my Grandmother gave in. She was one tough lady. She never took shit from anyone and once she made her mind up about anything it was impossible to change it. Yet even she couldn't stand up to the power of superstition from the Catholic Nuns.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:46:53 UTC | #933659

Agrajag's Avatar Comment 7 by Agrajag

Comment 5 by debonnesnouvelles

The nurse chanting at my mum's bedside also did a splendid performance on her mouth organ. It really was a spectacle to die for and Monty Python couldn't have done a better job of it.

Of course, in the context of a cat-o-holic hospital, "mouth organ" takes on a completely different meaning. ;-)
Steve

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:57:21 UTC | #933680

justinesaracen's Avatar Comment 8 by justinesaracen

I don't recall any special annoyance about being in a Christian hospital (for a head injury in a traffic accident), except for the fact that a nun suddenly showed up at my bedside to comfort me. It was decades ago, and all I recall is the embarrassment of having to chit chat with her while lying on top of the covers in nothing but a surgical gown. (It was a hot day). I was too embarrassed to reach down and pull up the covers because it would have looked obvious.

But I DID take offense at the doctor I had to see afterwards . It was too long ago to remember what role he played in the hospital, but I did have to see him for a check-up after I was released. He asked me, after such a close brush with death, did I feel closer to god. I was only a teenager, and not yet clear about my beliefs, but I remember being stunned by the question. I must have stammered out some kind of no, but don't remember exactly, but I do remember walking out of the office thinking how intrusive the question was.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:09:26 UTC | #933684

baldy's Avatar Comment 9 by baldy

On a slight tangent, I was recently admitted to a GB National Health hospital for a minor procedure. When I came round from the anaesthetic I discovered someone had kindly place a bible on my bedside locker. I thought it prudent to wait until I'd been discharged before raising any objections. I wrote to the Chief Executive of the Hospital Trust explaining my objections, which I imagine coincide with most contributors to this site. These included my distaste at the delivering of a captive audience to a special interest organisation, in this case Gideons, to serve their proselytising purposes. The reply was interesting and I quote more or less verbatim - "We have a feedback survey which receives approximately 700 responses a month and in the last 7 years there have been no complaints about the bedside bibles.

To remove them from all lockers (as I had suggested) would create an unnecessary expense at a time when the NHS is looking at reducing its costs. Also patients are free to request the removal of literature for the duration of their stay. Additionally in other Trusts we know that when bedside bibles are removed, this has generated complaints. It would seem that removing bibles would cause a problem and keeping them would do the same. Therefore the Trust will maintain the current status quo.

If you could please let us know when you are next treated that you would like the bible removed during a stay, we woule be more than happy to do this for you".

Once again, religion gets a free pass!

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:27:53 UTC | #933688

the great teapot's Avatar Comment 10 by the great teapot

I suppose on the plus side there is always a priest on hand ready to read the last rites before the patient is actually dead, that must be a great source of comfort. Fucking leeches.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:59:21 UTC | #933736

the great teapot's Avatar Comment 11 by the great teapot

Imagine setting up a private franchise with an hospital where for a fixed fee you can walk in to a hospital and stand over a patient and tell them good luck for the future even though you will soon be free from the shackles of life i have this feeling everything will just be just fine and dandy.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:05:45 UTC | #933738

MilitantNonStampCollector's Avatar Comment 12 by MilitantNonStampCollector

It's ironic how an act of revolting torture and misery is supposed to comfort those in pain. My atheist grandad, the story goes, once told a priest in no uncertain terms where to stick his bible when he tried to proselytize to him. This in a weakened state after recovering from an appendix removal. That's good old Catholic Ireland for you.

Imagine the roles were reversed. How would the religious like it if we atheists - unctuously and self-righteously - went to the deathbeds of the religious and lambasted them on how they had wasted their lives on a grovelling delusion.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:22:49 UTC | #933742

Daniel Williams's Avatar Comment 13 by Daniel Williams

Comment 12 by MilitantNonStampCollector :

if we atheists - unctuously and self-righteously - went to the deathbeds of the religious and lambasted them on how they had wasted their lives on a grovelling delusion.

Sounds like a plan.

I'm in.

Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:35:42 UTC | #933765

alaskansee's Avatar Comment 14 by alaskansee

@Comment 2 by QuestioningKat

Hospital care is seriously competitive in my city, larger more world renowned hospitals are running the show. Individual hospitals need to be on their toes at all times in order to survive.

I'm more frightened of your hospitals than my catholic one. Scary, very scary.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 05:29:52 UTC | #933826

debonnesnouvelles's Avatar Comment 15 by debonnesnouvelles

Comment 6 by Red Dog :

... It turns out when my mom was very young they took her to a Catholic hospital. At one point the nuns thought she might die so they baptized her and gave her last rites. She survived but after the nuns told my grandparents that since she had now been baptized Catholic for the sake of her soul she had to be brought up Catholic. My grandparents believed them and since it would have been too much of a hassle to raise one child Catholic and the rest Protestant decided all the kids would be Catholic...

Outrageous! The nuns just took it on themselves to do their magic hocus-pocus with your mother and your grandparents fell for the trick. And this made-up nonsense influenced the lives of 2 entire generations of your family. Good for you that you're breaking the cycle...

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:37:14 UTC | #933841

debonnesnouvelles's Avatar Comment 16 by debonnesnouvelles

Comment 8 by esuther :

... He asked me, after such a close brush with death, did I feel closer to god. I was only a teenager, and not yet clear about my beliefs, but I remember being stunned by the question. I must have stammered out some kind of no, but don't remember exactly, but I do remember walking out of the office thinking how intrusive the question was.

That is so much out of order from the doc. You were young and taken off guard. It sounds as though he was trying to satisfy his own personal curiosity about the subject. If something like that were to happen now, I'd like to think that I would complain about the doc.

It's true that the religious belief of a person is not a private thing in the sense that it can permeate into everything they do. Richard is right when he says - something along the lines of - if a candidate for presidency believes in the flying spaghetti monster, we'd like to know about it before we vote.

Unfortunately with doctors, there is rarely a chance of asking them what they believe before agreeing for them to treat you.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:53:07 UTC | #933842

debonnesnouvelles's Avatar Comment 17 by debonnesnouvelles

Comment 1 by Sample :

If a patient says, "Catholic," the code on the electronic medical record is CAT. If a patient replies, Christian, the code is CHR. Mormon becomes LDS, and so on. If a patient replies no, the code is NONE which prints out as No Preference. ...

There is a daily census printed out with these religious codes that are available for visiting chaplains. I recently asked the volunteer coordinator if a secular minister or atheist representative could volunteer for the Chaplain Board and was told no. I was told that nurses fulfill the role of "ministering" to people of no faith so there was no need to have a specific chaplain of no faith to be on the Chaplain Board. I had an hour long discussion with this volunteer chaplain coordinator on the finer points of her ignorance to no avail. ...

I was totally unaware of chaplain services in hospitals. I looked up the websites of several hospitals in my area and found what is called in german "Seelsorge" - seems to translate as "spiritual welfare".

My first reaction was that there is no need for something like that in a hospital. I would like a hospital to be dealing strictly with the medical problems at hand. The idea of having an information like CAT, CHR or NONE in the code of information together with name, condition, blood type, seems very wrong to me.

But on second thought I realize that many individuals do have a need for "spiritual welfare", especially in a situation that is unfamiliar and threatening to them. And if there is no secular help available, they are easy prey for religious vultures.

All the more reason that, if there is something like a chaplain's board in a hospital, there should be no question of there being a secular chaplain available for patients of no faith.

If you get a chance to discuss this again at your local hospital, one obvious argument seems to be that the nurses can not possibly fulfill the role of ministering to the people of no faith, because a) they have a lot of work on their hands and b) they might be religious themselves, therefore not being the right choice for comforting an atheist in distress.

The whole area of spiritual welfare is something that the religious groups have been in business in for a long time. Atheists have not. (as far as I know). I wonder if clergy who have recently come out as atheists would use their professional expertise in exactly this field to become "secular chaplains". But of course the patients have to come out and ask for secular chaplains, otherwise the hospitals won't see a need to change their attitude.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:42:01 UTC | #933847

wolfhoundGrowl's Avatar Comment 18 by wolfhoundGrowl

Comment Removed by Author

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:51:57 UTC | #933850

78rpm's Avatar Comment 19 by 78rpm

[Comment 9 >

"We have a feedback survey which receives approximately 700 responses a month and in the last 7 years there have been no complaints about the bedside bibles.

That sort of lie is a common tool of manipulators, not just with religion.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:17:02 UTC | #933865

Bobwundaye's Avatar Comment 20 by Bobwundaye

Again, I failed to see what all the hoo-ha is about.

I have been lucky to not be seriously ill needing hospitalization, but if I were, I doubt crosses on walls would vex me much. Nor would waking up and finding a Bible next to my bed. So someone assumed I had faith? What's the biggie?

Now it seems that even where religion seems to be meeting a need and actually providing services (I'm assuming a high standard) they are not wanted.

Are some of your skins really so thin that the site of a cross or crucifix insults you, or a Bible at your bedside reviles you? Are there not far worse things in life to worry and get angry about?

If I were injured and nursed back to health through professional care, I wouldn't mind if swastikas adorned the walls and Mein Kampf was left at my bedside.

Sometimes I wonder whether some atheists are in search of a cause.

I realize that what I have said sounds judgmental, but could someone please explain to me why having a chaplain visit you, or having a Bible left at the bedside is another example of the tyranny of the religious.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:28:24 UTC | #933917

Sample's Avatar Comment 21 by Sample

but could someone please explain to me why having a chaplain visit you, or having a Bible left at the bedside is another example of the tyranny of the religious.

Pass. You've been here long enough to guess why many in this forum would have objections on various levels. I challenge you to name one or two. :-j

Mike

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:39:24 UTC | #933920

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 22 by Tyler Durden

Comment 20 by Spiritual Atheist :

I realize that what I have said sounds judgmental, but could someone please explain to me why having a chaplain visit you, or having a Bible left at the bedside is another example of the tyranny of the religious.

Remind me again what it is they use in hospitals to cure, heal and improve the health of patients.

I'll give you a hint: it ain't the power of prayer.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:48:10 UTC | #933922

alphonsus's Avatar Comment 23 by alphonsus

Comment 10 by the great teapot I suppose on the plus side there is always a priest on hand ready to read the last rites before the patient is actually dead, that must be a great source of comfort. F*****g leeches

I presume from your final sentence that what preceded it was meant ironically. But in fact for some people it is a source of comfort if they or their relative receives spiritual care or the last rites before death. Even if you personally don't believe in it, why deny other people that comfort, as long as it isn't forced on those who don't want it?

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 17:02:09 UTC | #933925

alaskansee's Avatar Comment 24 by alaskansee

@Comment 20 by Spiritual Atheist

Again, I failed to see what all the hoo-ha is about.

The hoo-ha is about allowing a vulnerable group of people to be prayed upon by a deluded group of liars looking after their business interests.

There was a story in the Canadian press this week about a mother who had sent her addict child to a "rehabilitation centre" which turned out to be a scientology run facility who threw him out shortly after he arrived and did not give back the money. Is that easier to understand? Would you accept scientology's bible or promotional material in your hospital room? How about a big pile, a couple of books from each bunch of crazies?

It's like the separation of state and church, it benefits the religious too, it only penalises the religious would think they are the majority/monopoly.

Although as you can see from my earlier comment this greed is by no means limited to the religious.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 17:24:51 UTC | #933930

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 25 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 20 by Spiritual Atheist

Again, I failed to see what all the hoo-ha is about.

No surprise there then.

I have been lucky to not be seriously ill needing hospitalization, but if I were, I doubt crosses on walls would vex me much. Nor would waking up and finding a Bible next to my bed. So someone assumed I had faith? What's the biggie?

If your bedside table was stuffed full of all the various religious texts and the walls covered in all the various religious symbolism of all the religions, how would you feel then? How would a Muslim feel? Or a Jew? Or a Mormon? Or a Hindu? Or a feckin' NON-BELIEVER. If I'm sick and need hospitalisation, I don't want or need religious bullshit in my face. No more than I want political bullshit in my face, for example. You are just not getting this secular idea at all are ya? What about car sales flyers? Life insurance advertisements? Bridal catalogues? You give Christianity an undeserved respect that I do not, why should I have to put up with it? I wouldn't put up with a lot of other nonsense... Homoeopathy? Dowsing? Crystals? Where do you draw the line? Why one and not the other?

Now it seems that even where religion seems to be meeting a need and actually providing services (I'm assuming a high standard) they are not wanted.

Strawmanning again. If a religious person is in hospital and selects to receive palliative care from their pastor, no one is saying they shouldn't, but it should not be the de facto position of a hospital to provide one flavour of woo woo because for me and many other non-believers and believers alike, we can't be arsed with it.

Are some of your skins really so thin that the site of a cross or crucifix insults you, or a Bible at your bedside reviles you? Are there not far worse things in life to worry and get angry about?

Oh ffs will you try and get a grip of your comments. It is the undeserved respect you seem to have for your favourite flavour that is the problem. Ya see me, I'd flush the silly book down the toilet for a light hearted moment of devilment and stick the crucifix up the arse of the first person wearing a collar that walked through the ward door. I couldn't give a flying fuck and would be quick to demonstrate. I'm not everyone though, some people are frightened when in hospital, they think about their mortality and are vulnerable.... receiving religion in hospital should be a choice not a given and the religion of choice should be the religion of the patient not some anonymous busybody.

If I were injured and nursed back to health through professional care, I wouldn't mind if swastikas adorned the walls and Mein Kampf was left at my bedside.

You are taking the biscuit, you really are....and if you were a survivor of the Holocaust would you be any less concerned? Why would you think such a thing as acceptable in modern society? You seem to know no bounds when it comes to getting undeserved respect for your favourite cult.

Sometimes I wonder whether some atheists are in search of a cause.

Definitely. Especially one deserving as such. The militant, shrill and strident ones that are not so apathetic and want to live in an environment that is congenial to all and not favouring one mans load of woo woo nonsense over anothers. Why the feck should a 90 year old dying Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Scientologist, etc., etc., or Atheist, have to look at a crucifix hanging on a hospital ward wall in their final moments?

I realize that what I have said sounds judgmental, but could someone please explain to me why having a chaplain visit you, or having a Bible left at the bedside is another example of the tyranny of the religious.

Because it is only not cruel or oppressive to those that follow the tradition it represents and even then a lot of so called Christians don't like reminded when they are sick or knocking on deaths door.

So you'd think there would be no truck with a hospital that had a large scarlet "A" on the wall of every room and a copy of The God Delusion or God Is Not Great on the bedside table?...yeah, that'd be right an' all.

I empathise with the author on this subject. A long time ago I took an overdose and was raced to the nearest hospital with an A&E which just happened to be the Matar Informorium Hospital in Belfast. I awoke with an armed guard, I was still serving at the time and the incident was pre peace process. I remember all the religious paraphernalia when I woke and how disconcerting it all was.

It was initially founded by the Sisters of Mercy but has always treated patients without regard to class or creed.

That's easy for wiki to say, my experience was of being treated like a pyorrhoea. Whether it was the sin of suicide or the sin of being a British soldier, I don't know, but the cold shoulder was just as cold regardless.

Then when the visiting cleric starts foisting themselves onto those that either are not strong enough to resist or are too polite to say anything, we are then into a different level of invasion.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:19:21 UTC | #933943

the great teapot's Avatar Comment 26 by the great teapot

Alphonsus, Don't misquote, my last sentence was" fucking leeches", I've never seen those letters you used before.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:29:32 UTC | #933951

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 27 by xmaseveeve

Comment 20, Spiritual atheist,

If I were injured and nursed back to health through professional care, I wouldn't mind if swastikas adorned the walls and Mein Kampf was left at my bedside.

And if they told you your twin was in the next room?

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:30:46 UTC | #933953

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 28 by xmaseveeve

Amos are you getting this programme that's on? I can't believe it. Put on BBC1! Glasgow drama.

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:39:13 UTC | #933958

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 29 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Sorry Mods (but it is relevant)

We disagree! If you want to submit a topic for consideration as a new discussion thread please go to www.richarddawkins.net/discussions/new

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:40:45 UTC | #933978

Katy Cordeth's Avatar Comment 30 by Katy Cordeth

Comment 20 by Spiritual Atheist :

Again, I failed to see what all the hoo-ha is about.

I have been lucky to not be seriously ill needing hospitalization, but if I were, I doubt crosses on walls would vex me much. Nor would waking up and finding a Bible next to my bed. So someone assumed I had faith? What's the biggie?

Now it seems that even where religion seems to be meeting a need and actually providing services (I'm assuming a high standard) they are not wanted.

Are some of your skins really so thin that the site of a cross or crucifix insults you, or a Bible at your bedside reviles you? Are there not far worse things in life to worry and get angry about?

If I were injured and nursed back to health through professional care, I wouldn't mind if swastikas adorned the walls and Mein Kampf was left at my bedside.

Sometimes I wonder whether some atheists are in search of a cause.

I realize that what I have said sounds judgmental, but could someone please explain to me why having a chaplain visit you, or having a Bible left at the bedside is another example of the tyranny of the religious.

I agree. We don't need to fetishise things like crucifixes and bibles. We're nonbelievers, not vampires; these things can't harm us. And if we are unlucky enough to have to endure a stay in hospital, and we happen to be approached by a chaplain, most of us are fortunate enough to have the power of speech. We are capable of telling him that we're not really in the mood for company at the moment or we don't subscribe to the same belief system as him.

Or, and I'm aware that this a radical idea, we might even consider talking to the guy. He might be nice! He might have interesting stories to tell. He might nip out to the nearest newsagent and get us twenty Bennie Hedges if we ask him nicely.

And, after he's finished talking to us, he might move on to the next bed, to someone perhaps nearing the end of their life, who is frightened, and what he says to them might make things easier for them; give them succour.

Because although we may be atheist or agnostic, not everybody is. And many people in hospital do take comfort from these "deluded liars looking after their business interests" or "fucking leeches".

As for being offended by the presence of a book, a bloody book?! For goodness' sake, I'm offended by the existence of Michael Mcintire. I truly am. His very presence on this earth is a source of constant consternation to me, but I deal with it by turning off the television whenever he comes on. And by regularly mailing him packages filled with canine excrem......never mind.

Are we really becoming so precious and sensitive that the talismans so treasured by the religious are beginning to work their magic on us as well?

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:52:36 UTC | #933994