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← Stop female genital mutilation in the UK! - Avaaz.org petition

Stop female genital mutilation in the UK! - Avaaz.org petition - Comments

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 1 by VrijVlinder

I saw that interview with the dentist on TV . Why is a dentist doing that? Not that anyone should do it but for that matter have a veterinary . This shows how girls are subjugated due to Islam. The ultimate way to control females is by taking away their sexuality and sexual desire.

This practice amounts to barbarism and should not be allowed in civilized countries. The parents of these girls should be the ones going to jail. There should be some kind of organization that provides help and shelter for these girls.

There has to be adverts on TV telling people this practice is a crime. It is not a religious ritual nor is it prophylactic . Those who get this done to them are permanently ruined. It is not circumcision as some people name it. This leaves the girl with permanent problems, infections and can die from this. It is a mental mutilation as well.

Everyone in the world should unite to permanently stop this horrible practice. That kind of thing is against the law here in the USA. I believe that parents are at fault and there needs to be an education campaign targeted at them or threaten them with jail time and loss of paternity rights..

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:35:02 UTC | #945330

skeelo's Avatar Comment 2 by skeelo

Signed: I wish you all the best in your campaign.

Given the scale of the problem, it is an absolute scandal that not one case has reached the courts.

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 23:15:34 UTC | #945367

mmurray's Avatar Comment 3 by mmurray

These people seem to do good work

http://www.forwarduk.org.uk

Michael

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 00:10:09 UTC | #945373

Robert Firth's Avatar Comment 4 by Robert Firth

If this petition were to stop infant and child genital mutilation, I would sign it in a heartbeat. But a petition that ignores 95% of the victims of this barbaric practice is one that I will not sign. First, because it is sexist and morally wrong. Secondly, because it denies or diminishes the suffering of half of humanity. And finally, because it will be almost completely counterproductive: it will only confirm among the practitioners of FGM the disgusting hypocrisy of us Westerners, who condemn them for doing to girls what we routinely do to boys.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 03:52:14 UTC | #945390

green and dying's Avatar Comment 5 by green and dying

Comment 4 by Robert Firth :

If this petition were to stop infant and child genital mutilation, I would sign it in a heartbeat. But a petition that ignores 95% of the victims of this barbaric practice is one that I will not sign. First, because it is sexist and morally wrong. Secondly, because it denies or diminishes the suffering of half of humanity. And finally, because it will be almost completely counterproductive: it will only confirm among the practitioners of FGM the disgusting hypocrisy of us Westerners, who condemn them for doing to girls what we routinely do to boys.

Okay...

Firstly, I don't see how trying to prevent the suffering of one group of people diminishes the suffering of another group. I'm not even sure if I care if it does because circumcising boys is just objectively not as bad as FGM (not that I don't think circumcising boys for no reason should be illegal).

And secondly most of the West doesn't actually routinely circumcise boys.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 04:37:45 UTC | #945398

Corylus's Avatar Comment 6 by Corylus

Comment 4 by Robert Firth :

If this petition were to stop infant and child genital mutilation, I would sign it in a heartbeat. But a petition that ignores 95% of the victims of this barbaric practice is one that I will not sign. First, because it is sexist and morally wrong. Secondly, because it denies or diminishes the suffering of half of humanity. And finally, because it will be almost completely counterproductive: it will only confirm among the practitioners of FGM the disgusting hypocrisy of us Westerners, who condemn them for doing to girls what we routinely do to boys.

You might wish to consider supporting this group then.

Genital Autonomy is against all non-consensual, non-therapeutic surgery - including surgery on intersex children.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:32:45 UTC | #945440

Jonathan Dore's Avatar Comment 7 by Jonathan Dore

Comment 1 by VrijVlinder

I saw that interview with the dentist on TV . Why is a dentist doing that?

I would imagine because no one would suspect a dentist of doing it, so no one would be monitoring him for it. He's under the radar (at least, until he gave a TV interview...).

That kind of thing is against the law here in the USA.

It's against the law in the UK too -- indeed a special law specifically outlawing it was passed in 2003, to make sure there were no loopholes. The scandal is that the law is not being enforced. If you have communities of Somali or Eritrean immigrants in the US, chances are it's going on there too, under the radar ...

Comment 4 by Robert Firth

Get over yourself. If you can't compromise your delicate conscience enough to sign a simple petition in an urgently needed cause just because it doesn't also address a related cause, you need to clamber down from your high horse a bit more often. These little girls need people to stand up for them, not fastidiously dictate the terms of their support.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:46:40 UTC | #945477

EvN's Avatar Comment 8 by EvN

Signed.

Grandwazoo, let nobody tell you that this is difficult to prosecute. It is assault (sexual assault and assault GBH) under the Common Law. In other words, the guilty parties are sexual predators (and will have to be placed on your list of sex criminals).

The legislation regarding the reporting of sexual assault on minors can also be an important weapon in the hands of a competent prosecutor as well as the legislation regarding neglect and endangerment of children.

Most often, the child will not need to testify as res ipsa loquitur and the parents will have, at the very least, a burden to rebut. Good medical evidence will be crucial, though.

You do not even need the silly piece of legislation your Parliament decided to pass in this regard. The legislation makes it more difficult to prosecute, truth be told, so acting under the Common Law is the way to go. This is SO easy to prosecute under the Common Law that I can only surmise that the enactment of redundant legislation and the lack of prosecutions are politically motivated.

I am not an expert in English law, but any competent attorney will, no doubt, confirm what I say. I am sure you can find an attorney or barrister to draft a legal opinion to accompany your petition and I am sure many of them will do it pro amico (as a friend of the girls and without wanting payment).

Good luck.

(Sorry if I repeat stuff or miss a central point - I cannot access the article you linked to.)

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 16:52:07 UTC | #945504

EvN's Avatar Comment 9 by EvN

Comment 4 by Robert Firth

If this petition were to stop ... confirm among the practitioners of FGM the disgusting hypocrisy of us Westerners, who condemn them for doing to girls what we routinely do to boys.

Around here we call this "whataboutery."

"They" are welcome to call me a hypocrate a million times if my efforts can save one single little girl. Frankly my dear, ...

And, please, be careful who you include in your "we." It does not include the vast majority of Westerners nor the majority of regulars on this Board. It certainly does NOT include this African.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:04:34 UTC | #945507

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 10 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 9 by EvN

Plus one.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:15:12 UTC | #945511

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 11 by VrijVlinder

There is a big difference between female genital mutilation and the removal of a foreskin. What makes it different? That one mutilates a person leaving them unable to enjoy sex and with physical anatomical disfunction . Pain and infection constant. They are damaged permanently.

I have spoke to many men about their feeling on circumcision and those who are circumcised do not miss their foreskin and can function sexually and have a normal sex life without any problems. Not to say that some may go badly, but the majority done by a urologist surgeon come out without any problems. I also have spoken to men who wish they had been circumcised as babies. Why don't they get it done then? Because as adults it is a very risky thing and involves more pain and potential complications from erections that rip the stitches open and it takes time to heal. Also leaves the penis disfigured. There are many medical reasons that require the male to be circumcised. There are no beneficial reasons behind the female mutilation . The sole purpose is to chastise them into submission. That is cruel.

What they do to these girls is life changing in a very detrimental way. It is torture. It is wrong. It should be stopped. It is a touchy subject but it must be talked about .

This mutilation became illegal in Egypt but apparently it has been overturned. How can this be? If anything good ever came from British occupation of Egypt in terms of bringing civilized behavior to the country, it has all but been forgotten.

So much so that this practice is allowed to happen in British soil. The law,It is not enforced , why? When I was a grade school teacher I used to study the children to see if they showed signs of abuse. There was one girl from south america. She was so thin she looked younger but mistakenly placed in fourth grade when she should have been in 6th.

I suspected she was being abused. I can't say what it is that lets you know. maybe I recognized myself in her. I told and nothing was done in my case. I did not want her to suffer the same. I reported my suspicions to the principal and they took her to be examined and child services were called.

It turned out she had been abused by a relative. It was the safest thing to be right about such a horrible thing. But it would be worse to not do anything about it.

If you or someone you know suspects a girl might be in danger of this mutilation, speak up !! The best thing that can happen is that you are wrong and there is no abuse. If there is you will be glad you did something to save a girl's life.

What can people do? wear a tshirt put up a poster in front of your house get a bumper sticker. Anything to get information out to people and to the girls so they can ask for help. So they know they are not alone and people care.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 21:07:45 UTC | #945572

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 12 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 11 by VrijVlinder

I have spoke to many men about their feeling on circumcision and those who are circumcised do not miss their foreskin and can function sexually and have a normal sex life without any problems. Not to say that some may go badly, but the majority done by a urologist surgeon come out without any problems. I also have spoken to men who wish they had been circumcised as babies. Why don't they get it done then? Because as adults it is a very risky thing and involves more pain and potential complications from erections that rip the stitches open and it takes time to heal. Also leaves the penis disfigured. There are many medical reasons that require the male to be circumcised. There are no beneficial reasons behind the female mutilation . The sole purpose is to chastise them into submission. That is cruel.

I have to agree with you. I suffered from a condition a number years back called Phimosis. It was a bloody nightmare and required surgery to correct. I was warned that at my time of life there could be a certain amount of risk involved. Fortunately it went well, for the most part. Recently I discovered from my mother that I'd had the same condition back when I was too young to remember. My parents decided I should not have the procedure back then, I wish I had.

Needless to say everything is fine and fully functional now, but as a result of the operation I required 22 stitches and was laid up for 3 weeks, something I would have avoided if it had been done as a child.

Still, I don't condone circumcision for anyone whether on religious or cultural grounds.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 23:53:27 UTC | #945606

mmurray's Avatar Comment 13 by mmurray

From Forward the charity I linked above:

PRESS RELEASE- “FORWARD calls for stronger government action to safeguard girls from Female Genital Mutilation following shocking Sunday Times investigation”

May 2nd 2012
FORWARD the lead UK charity working to tackle female genital mutilation (FGM) has called on the UK government to adopt a more comprehensive approach to safeguard girls from this harmful practice. FORWARD’s research estimates that 24,000 girls under 16 years could be at risk of the most severe form of FGM in England and Wales. The warning comes as the Sunday Times Investigation revealed two UK health professionals and an Imam colluding in the illegal practice of FGM. FORWARD is urging the UK government to take stronger action to prosecute and necessary steps to safeguard UK girls this summer. The undercover investigation revealed that a doctor, a dentist, an alternative medical practitioner and a respected religious leader supported the practice of FGM on girls as young as 10-years-old in the UK. These revelations again demonstrate the need to engage FGM affected communities including men and opinion makers such as religious leaders to be targeted to influence change.

FORWARD’s Executive Director says: “The current patchy approach to tackling FGM is failing to safeguard children at risk. Key professionals do not have the confidence to effectively respond where girls are at risk. Current guidance on FGM has not been accorded statutory status and, as such, does not form part of mainstream training for frontline professionals, such as GPs, health visitors and teachers, who come into contact with women and girls affected by FGM. The UK government must take appropriate measures including developing a comprehensive and national strategy on FGM to demonstrate commitment to protect the rights of all girls at risk of FGM in the UK.” The UK government has a duty to protect existing specialist FGM health and support services for women and girls and improve primary prevention particularly in London where FGM has become a growing concern.

NOTE: For Further information please contact Naomi Reid at 0208 960 4000; naomi@forwarduk.org.uk FORWARD (Foundation for Women's Health Research and Development) is an African Diaspora women led charity dedicated to advancing and safeguarding the sexual and reproductive health and rights of African girls and women. We work in the UK, Europe and Africa to change practices and policies that affect access, dignity and wellbeing. We tackle FGM, child marriage and related rights of girls and young women.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:03:20 UTC | #945608

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 14 by VrijVlinder

@ Amos,

That sucks, I know men who had that condition and also had to get circumcised. My own half brother had to get it at 12 years old. And ripped the stitches several times from involuntary erections. I would suspect that these things are spotted at childhood and ignored thinking it will go away then never talk about it. It is better to get it done for prophylactic reasons if a problem is found early. If only to spare the suffering. I suspect cultural and religious incorporation of circumcision in males started with medical reasons. It is still the only reason to have one.

I don't condone anything on religious or cultural grounds. Their track record is questionable at best. And the female genital mutilation is appalling . isn't child bearing enough torture ? I have a friend who has a daughter and she had a condition where the labia was closing over her vagina. She had to have several operations as she got older to keep this from happening. Surely there are many freakish things that humans have to deal with about genitals.And medical reason behind certain operations. In both males and females.

But it is not something to just do for no reason at all. What about hymen reconstruction. Another ridiculous invention by religion. So it is ok to give a clitorectomy but not to be a non virgin. I would think the operation alone is de virginizing.

@Michael: Thanks for that info

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:47:36 UTC | #945616

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 15 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 14 by VrijVlinder

I don't condone anything on religious or cultural grounds.

Well there are certain benign traditions that I'm just that bothered about to give much consideration either way. I suppose the use of the word 'condone' was inappropriate in this instance.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 01:10:00 UTC | #945619

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 16 by VrijVlinder

Amos, yea I get you though, muslims circumcise their boys at age 12, hardly benign considering puberty and complications. The practice in some cultures has deviated from prophylactic use to some kind of sadistic ritual.

In Africa it has been done to girls in some tribes for hundreds if not thousands of years. They use rudimentary tools like broken glass to cut them and cauterize it with ashes.No use of anesthetic.( Which is why I suspect this dentist volunteered to do this. He had access to local anesthetics.That may seem more humane to these crazy people. Which also shows they are aware of the pain inflicted if anesthetics are not used. Premeditated harm to another.)

In these cultures they are told that it is a step into manhood or womanhood. That it is essential to be able to bare the pain and struggle of life itself. This of course makes no sense at all and is muddied in ignorance and superstition.

The catholic church castrated their choir boys so they would keep their angelical voices, for centuries. if that was the only sordid reason behind it. It was culturally accepted at the time. Having fleas was a sign of upper class at one point.

Females are still possessions to be done with whatever they want in large parts of the world. All because of ignorance and the need to subjugate another human being.

There was an episode of a popular american show called Law and Order. An Egyptian man is murdered because he had hired an Egyptian doctor to perform a female circumcision on the man's niece. A.D.A.s McCoy and Ross have to deal with a clash between cultural convictions and the law.

Here is also an example of the wrong use of the term circumcision. it is mutilation which is much much worse. Cultural convictions are dangerous, no doubt about it. and this one specifically tops the charts for grotesque practices against a female. many survivors of this mutilation wished they had died from it.

It is heartbreaking and makes me feel impotent because it is such a covert practice, one only finds out after the fact from hospital and police reports. People may not understand doing this is no different than cutting off their arm or foot. Maybe if it was about that people would complain more about the practice but genital mutilation is something straight out of Jack the Ripper stories. Just horrible and hard to imagine, watching the videos of this practice sends chills down my spine and leaves me feeling very disturbed. This stuff is real folks it is happening and it has got to stop!!!

How can anyone do this to an innocent child? The parents should be prosecuted for this. They are the ones truly responsible. Every family who has a muslim background should be checked out by child services to make sure they are not doing this kind of thing. It may be invasive and they will not like it, but I don't like their rituals not here not where they came from. Intervention by authorities seems the only reasonable way. Those who are not extreme and do not condone this practice will have nothing to fear from the investigations.

In Utah there are mormons who are polygamists . It is their "religion" or so their book dictates. There were some allegations of sexual abuse and as soon as they were substantiated those kids were taken out of that environment very quickly by authorities. Religious or not , abuse is abuse. They can't use the religion shield to promulgate their activities as dictated by god. There are limits to this allowance.

Maybe I am extreme in my views. But it is from everything I have seen so far in my life.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 05:03:04 UTC | #945639

EvN's Avatar Comment 17 by EvN

@ Mmurray and VrijVlinder

This is what makes me apoplectic with anger:

Current guidance on FGM has not been accorded statutory status and, as such, does not form part of mainstream training for frontline professionals, such as GPs, health visitors and teachers …

Why on earth would GPs, health visitors and teachers need “guidance” in the face of sexual or physical assault on a child? Call Social Services and the Police. Simples.

All reasonable people know this (apart from RCC priests, of course).

(Michael, I understand that FORWARD is doing what they can do and I support their efforts. This is not a swipe at them.)

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 06:37:49 UTC | #945647

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 18 by VrijVlinder

@EvN:

I can't agree more. It is a crime treat it like one. Use laws in place for sexual assault on a child. If it was about incest the child would have been taken out of that home. This practice can be tried as a sex crime. It is a sex crime.

Maybe what they mean by guidance is tact. Approach the subject with tact after all the victim is a child. It is valid to train teachers how to approach the victim or potential victim and how to deal with the parents of the victim as well as what to do next and who to call in for investigation...

After this dentist's Exposé every doctor who has access to anesthetics should be monitored. Even veterinary doctors. The unscrupulous are fast and many.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 07:28:36 UTC | #945651

Peter Grant's Avatar Comment 19 by Peter Grant

Stop female genital mutilation in the UK! http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Stop_female_genital_mutilation_in_the_UK/?cl=1821934338&v=14523

68,184 signers. Let's reach 100,000

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 08:10:43 UTC | #945654

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 20 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 16 by VrijVlinder

Maybe I am extreme in my views. But it is from everything I have seen so far in my life.

Not at all, you justify your position with the examples you give. I was thinking more along the lines of those benign religious and cultural rituals of things like weddings or funerals....Christmas or Easter....for example.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:00:12 UTC | #945676

mmurray's Avatar Comment 21 by mmurray

I never know if non-UK signatures help but I've added mine

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Stop_female_genital_mutilation_in_the_UK/

68,239 signers. Let's reach 100,000

Michael

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:00:57 UTC | #945677

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 22 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 18 by VrijVlinder

@EvN:

I can't agree more. It is a crime treat it like one. Use laws in place for sexual assault on a child. If it was about incest the child would have been taken out of that home. This practice can be tried as a sex crime. It is a sex crime.

No need to go as far as sexual assault with all the problems proving such entails.

It's common assault, sentence of 6 months....cruelty to a child, sentence of 10 years.... actual bodily harm, sentence of 5 years.... and as far as I'm concerned it's grievous bodily harm, maximum sentence of life......

I have to ask why a special category was created for this heinous nonsense. I can only think it was for sentencing reasons...14 years for Female Genital Mutilation, see Legal Guidance. Until someone is actually convicted under the created legislation, it is a moot piece of law.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:34:32 UTC | #945680

alphcat's Avatar Comment 23 by alphcat

Robert Firth comment 4, you wrote: "If this petition were to stop infant and child genital mutilation, I would sign it in a heartbeat. But a petition that ignores 95% of the victims of this barbaric practice is one that I will not sign. First, because it is sexist and morally wrong. Secondly, because it denies or diminishes the suffering of half of humanity. And finally, because it will be almost completely counterproductive: it will only confirm among the practitioners of FGM the disgusting hypocrisy of us Westerners, who condemn them for doing to girls what we routinely do to boys"

Whilst I agree with you about male circumsion being wrong, there is a huge difference between the two practices. Female Genital Mutilation involves the removal of the clitoris and more. Often the vagina is sewn up leaving just a small hole for mentrual blood. The only male equivalant I can think of would be having the whole or a huge chunk of the penis removed. It makes enjoyment of sex nigh on impossible, infection likely and childbirth impossible.That is why perhaps the term female genital mutilation has replaced female circumcision. The two are not comparable by any stretch of the imagination.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:54:41 UTC | #945683

mmurray's Avatar Comment 24 by mmurray

Comment 22 by Ignorant Amos :

No need to go as far as sexual assault with all the problems proving such entails.

It's common assault, sentence of 6 months.... cruelty to a child, sentence of 10 years.... actual bodily harm, sentence of 5 years.... and as far as I'm concerned it's grievous bodily harm, maximum sentence of life......

I have to ask why a special category was created for this heinous nonsense. I can only think it was for sentencing reasons...14 years for Female Genital Mutilation, see Legal Guidance. Until someone is actually convicted under the created legislation, it is a moot piece of law.

There was a need to make it illegal to take a child overseas and have FGM performed there by an non-UK citizen. But that was a change to the FGM act after it was put in place. I don't know what the reason was for making the FGM act in the first place.

Michael

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:00:44 UTC | #945684

EvN's Avatar Comment 25 by EvN

Ah, Amos! This is exactly the type of information a prosecutor will consider when drafting an indictment.

Charge 1: Assault GBH, First Alternative: Cruelty to a child, and so on. Make a book of charges.

Even the sexual aspect is not difficult, technically speaking – it would be much easier to prove than a case where there is no physical evidence.

The special category was created as a political sop to voters, Michael. This will ALWAYS be GBH. By definition, it is GBH.

The voters complain about something? OK. Let’s pass a law. That’ll keep the voters quiet for a while. They are too stupid to see that we have done nothing under the current, quite adequate law, so let’s make a piece of legislation with fancy words and lots of sub-paragraphs and difficult jurisdictional thresholds. Let’s deflect their gaze from our miserable failure up to now to do anything about this.

We had a parliamentarian who, the other day, told a group of rural women that she will request Parliament to make the sentence for murder life imprisonment and they cheered her! Facepalm! Murder already carries a sentence of life imprisonment, you dishonest shyster!

Bah! The only article in the legislation that is remotely useful is the piece that criminalises taking the child out of the country for the procedure.

As to VrijVlinder’s suggestion that “guidance” refers to tact. Again, I do not think so. There are guidance notes for child abuse already. Why should this barbaric practise be seen as anything but child abuse? It IS child abuse. Why does it merit special treatment? What is the difference between these parents and other parents who abuse children? They are all scum.

Sorry for my rant. When it comes to the harming of children, I tend to shout.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:22:11 UTC | #945687

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 26 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 24 by mmurray

There was a need to make it illegal to take a child overseas and have FGM performed there by an non-UK citizen. But that was a change to the FGM act after it was put in place. I don't know what the reason was for making the FGM act in the first place.

The change in 2003....and as yet, not a single prosecution regardless. Even the change to make it illegal to take a child overseas has had no impact...why did they bother?

I'm with EvN, a sop to pacify anybody that complained that nothing was being done about the practice. Well nothing has been done about the practice, somebody needs to get their finger out, an impotent law is no deterrent whatsoever.

Sorry for my rant. When it comes to the harming of children, I tend to shout.

I'm sorry I have to be so like ya...it moves me to notions of violence, which is never a good thing.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:54:23 UTC | #945692

silentbutler's Avatar Comment 27 by silentbutler

Comment 4 by Robert Firth :

If this petition were to stop infant and child genital mutilation, I would sign it in a heartbeat. But a petition that ignores 95% of the victims of this barbaric practice is one that I will not sign. First, because it is sexist and morally wrong. Secondly, because it denies or diminishes the suffering of half of humanity. And finally, because it will be almost completely counterproductive: it will only confirm among the practitioners of FGM the disgusting hypocrisy of us Westerners, who condemn them for doing to girls what we routinely do to boys.

Hmmm, I myself only have so much confidence in the effectiveness of such partitions, but to not at the very least acknowledge your position would confirm that ineffectiveness. Acknowledging its "barbarism" in the west will open up some blind eyes and maybe turn a few east. That can't be all bad...and that's not a question. As for circumcision, everyone knows the origin to the practice, and yes, the motives were equally barbaric. But female vaginal mutilation signifies a greater kind of repression then just preventing the sin of sexual pleasure. After all, males in both the west and the east suffer no discrimination with or without a helmet.

And for the record, anyone obsessing over their foreskin, either the presence, or lack there of, has deeper issues at hand than a forgotten medical procedure performed days after birth. I myself have no problem in the pleasure department and no deep seated suppressed feelings on the issue.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:44:51 UTC | #945721

silentbutler's Avatar Comment 28 by silentbutler

Comment 23 by alphcat :

Robert Firth comment 4, you wrote: "If this petition were to stop infant and child genital mutilation, I would sign it in a heartbeat. But a petition that ignores 95% of the victims of this barbaric practice is one that I will not sign. First, because it is sexist and morally wrong. Secondly, because it denies or diminishes the suffering of half of humanity. And finally, because it will be almost completely counterproductive: it will only confirm among the practitioners of FGM the disgusting hypocrisy of us Westerners, who condemn them for doing to girls what we routinely do to boys" Whilst I agree with you about male circumsion being wrong, there is a huge difference between the two practices. Female Genital Mutilation involves the removal of the clitoris and more. Often the vagina is sewn up leaving just a small hole for mentrual blood. The only male equivalant I can think of would be having the whole or a huge chunk of the penis removed. It makes enjoyment of sex nigh on impossible, infection likely and childbirth impossible.That is why perhaps the term female genital mutilation has replaced female circumcision. The two are not comparable by any stretch of the imagination.

Here here.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:49:13 UTC | #945723

silentbutler's Avatar Comment 29 by silentbutler

signed sealed and delivered.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:59:51 UTC | #945724

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 30 by VrijVlinder

@Comment 25 by EvNA as to VrijVlinder’s suggestion that “guidance” refers to tact. Again, I do not think so. There are guidance notes for child abuse already. Why should this barbaric practise be seen as anything but child abuse?

Well consider that most child abuse is only detected after the fact. In this case it is imperative to get to the child in time to stop this from happening.

A child in that circumstance likely has been brainwashed that it is a common thing to have done. So it is unlikely they will step forward voluntarily . In this case the teacher would have to intrude before any abuse has happened. Not to minimize child rape etc. However how do you explain to a 9 year old that her clitoris might be cut off and why that is a bad thing?

If it is hard for parents to talk to their children about sexuality and their genitals how can a teacher deal with the subject matter without a criteria to follow.

There must be some psychological guidance as to how to proceed . We want these girls to ask for the help they need not to make the practice go further underground.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 19:56:26 UTC | #945747