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Religious Doctor Denies Medicine for HIV Positive Gay Man - Comments

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 1 by VrijVlinder

That is terrible !! That doctor should become a priest !

Sun, 01 Jul 2012 20:11:18 UTC | #948400

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 2 by Alan4discussion

The hospital's conduct allegedly caused Simoes to miss five doses of his medication. Simoes seeks punitive damages for discrimination. He is represented by Kevin Costello with Costello & Mains of Mount Laurel, N.J.

If this is proved, punitive damages with this doctor struck off and barred from practice, would seem appropriate for this wilful dereliction of duty, - and wilfully the perverse negation of medical ethics!

Of course the poor little "(theistically) high-minded" religinut doctor is bound (along with a muppet chorus), to sit on his high-horse playing the offended victimised martyr! (to his own stupidity!) with airs of superiority.

Time for the law and the medical bodies to give these clowns some lessons in ethics!

Sun, 01 Jul 2012 20:26:52 UTC | #948403

Quine's Avatar Comment 3 by Quine

Signed.

Sun, 01 Jul 2012 21:52:58 UTC | #948412

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 4 by Neodarwinian

One would expect medical board action to be the least that happens here and a successful civil suit, establishing or upholding precedent, the most happening. Some day criminal charges based on religious buffoonery would be nice!

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 00:01:54 UTC | #948414

susanlatimer's Avatar Comment 5 by susanlatimer

Signed.

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 01:38:03 UTC | #948420

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 6 by Red Dog

Signed

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 02:27:19 UTC | #948426

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 7 by xmaseveeve

signed and put on facebook.

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 06:15:02 UTC | #948434

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 8 by Ignorant Amos

Well Bobwundaye, here's a shining example of what we've been talking about on the 'moral compass' thread....for every action there should be a reaction. Religious bigotry in all its feckin despicable glory.

Signed.

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 07:32:50 UTC | #948444

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 9 by VrijVlinder

@Amos: here's a shining example of what we've been talking about on the 'moral compass' thread....for every action there should be a reaction. Religious bigotry in all its feckin despicable glory.

She really needs to look inside herself and analyze that what she did is not going to get her into heaven. Who is she to judge ? Is it not god the last judge? Logic follows that her god will punish her. If anything for impersonating god.

It would be one thing if she had removed herself from attending the person and having someone come and take over instead of just walking out and saying deal with it you deserve what you got. How can anyone specially a christen be so cruel. This kind of person besides needing serious mental help, need to have her medical license revoked and launch a class action suit against her and the hospital.

Appalling to say the least...

About the moral compass, we lost the compass with the moral :(

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 10:31:38 UTC | #948452

justinesaracen's Avatar Comment 10 by justinesaracen

signed

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 15:45:54 UTC | #948464

debonnesnouvelles's Avatar Comment 11 by debonnesnouvelles

what an abomination. one hopes that this kind of behavior is very much the exception. or maybe religion should be done away with in hospitals? petition signed, although a signature from across the little pond might not mean much. does anyone know about that?

Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:43:20 UTC | #948468

Lapithes's Avatar Comment 12 by Lapithes

A petition!? Isn't this a police matter?

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 00:53:10 UTC | #948477

Sue Blue's Avatar Comment 13 by Sue Blue

Signed. Added a scathing personal note, too. Did this physician sleep through her ethics classes in med school? Does she treat all her patients based on her assessment of their personal worth and morality? She does not deserve the title of doctor. She should be fired immediately and have her medical license suspended as well as face criminal charges. I hope they throw the book at this sorry excuse for a human being.

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 04:55:50 UTC | #948480

EvN's Avatar Comment 14 by EvN

It seems as if the hospital is being sued, and rightly so. Unfortunately it appears as if this "doctor" is not being sued in her personal capacity, so she will probably get off scot free in the money department.

This is a "problem" the world over. The institution/employer is usually cited, but very often the person himself/herself is not because the institution has the deep pockets. And lawyers will be lawyers :-)

I would have liked to see her being held responsible in her personal capacity. I do hope that the relevant authorities scrap her medical license completely and that she gets fired.

I do not understand the references to the police and criminal charges. Criminal charges for what crime? What am I missing?

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 05:34:00 UTC | #948481

Sample's Avatar Comment 15 by Sample

Devil's advocate.

What's the difference between what this doctor did (that title was earned btw, it can't be stripped away, though a license to practice can) and when a doctor refuses to accept federal funds thereby being able to refuse anyone who can't pay at time of services?

In other words, in the US, a physician can either choose to accept Medicare consignment (meaning they agree to accept whatever the US Government will reimburse for a procedure [usually a relatively paltry sum]) or forgo it altogether and deny seeing any demographic of clientele they want.

Obviously most oncologists, pulmonologists, urologists, will take the Govt. offer because most of their patients are senior citizens. They play the odds that if they see tons of elderly patients, they can offset the paltry reimbursements (additionally, altruism and a genuine love for their field, shouldn't be dismissed in this equation).

So, back to the topic. For many years my home town did not have a permanent dermatologist. When the MD came up from Seattle, he required cash payments at time of service. He would not bill Medicare (and didn't have to because he legally refused to accept assignment from the Govt.). Consequently, elderly (with Medicare insurance) were turned away, despite their need for care.

So, this religious nut of a doctor discriminates against a certain class of people. What's the difference between him and a doctor who refuses to see a patient because of their ability to pay? The difference is, the latter is ubiquitous and doesn't make headlines. Should it?

Mike

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 06:21:21 UTC | #948483

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 16 by Alan4discussion

Comment 15 by Sample - Devil's advocate.

What's the difference between him and a doctor who refuses to see a patient because of their ability to pay?

The difference is in the background legal system and medical ethics. In many countries there would be no quibble, with doctors' responsibilities in their contracts for public service quite clear, but the USA is dominated by big-money medical "service" companies, their political lobby, and their highly paid legal representatives. - As I have linked before - http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/2011/04/26/cost-of-health-care-by-country-national-geographic/

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 09:12:53 UTC | #948487

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 17 by xmaseveeve

Comment 14, EvN, Hi there,

I forgot to quote you, but you asked which crime had been committed. A few suggestions;

Reckless endangerment, failure of duty of care (even the most basic professional responsibility) and possibly false imprisonment (as he wasn't allowed a phone call and visitors were prevented). I wish there was attempted manslaughter. Obviously attempted murder wouldn't stick, but this doctor left 'God' to decide if her patient died. That has to be a serious crime. Apart from the fact that she should be struck off.

How about this. He missed 5 days of medication? What if he had died? It would have been manslaughter. Ask Michael Jackson's doctor. In the case of a doctor and patient, failure to act is a kind of action. He needn't have died within the five days, but died as a direct result of complications - no novus actus interveniens - of her witholding of medication . So, attempted manslaughter is, in effect, exactly what it is. So, I'd say reckless endangerment.

I hope that this becomes a test case making it clear that religious belief can never be an excuse for breaking the law. Ah, but which law? I think that if this petition can help to create the will, the means of bringing specific offences will be found.

I hope you won your case, or it's going well.

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 12:26:40 UTC | #948492

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 18 by xmaseveeve

Sorry - scrub the duty of care thing.

It wasn't just recklessness. It was a hate crime. It was wicked recklessness.

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 13:45:09 UTC | #948499

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 19 by xmaseveeve

There's just been another hideous breach of medical care, in a London hospital, where a young man phoned 999 on his mobile phone, from his hospital bed, and said he was dying of thirst and the nurses would not listen to him. The police went to the hospital but were assured by a nurse that the patient was simply confused. An hour and a half later, he died from dehydration.

(These nurses, described as 'lazy' did not deny care due to prejudice or hate.) So tragic. Manslaughter, I'd say? Should the police have accepted the explanation? I don't think so. The gatekeepers of life and safety, those with discretion which can kill, must be held to account.

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 16:14:39 UTC | #948508

Nicholas Oliver's Avatar Comment 20 by Nicholas Oliver

Signed. A fine example of how religion poisons minds and allows for the most heinous of inhumane acts.

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:51:48 UTC | #948519

Hobomidget's Avatar Comment 21 by Hobomidget

Why isn't this doctor fired. This is a clear violation of the Hippocratic oath.... Isn't it?

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 20:14:22 UTC | #948522

phil rimmer's Avatar Comment 22 by phil rimmer

Signed.

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:39:30 UTC | #948525

VrijVlinder's Avatar Comment 23 by VrijVlinder

@Comment 19 by xmaseveeve : a young man phoned 999 on his mobile phone, from his hospital bed, and said he was dying of thirst and the nurses would not listen to him. The police went to the hospital but were assured by a nurse that the patient was simply confused. An hour and a half later, he died from dehydration.

In this case the police have demonstrated undeserved respect for Nurses. If they had been nuns the same would have happened. The police could never imagine a nurse or nun to be neglectful. And even less a doctor.

Maybe in the past nurses and doctors took their job seriously. But it is no longer that way. A patient has to have patient advocates or they do not get the care they deserve.

People are fallible no matter what they are and do not deserve, undeserved respect just because of their profession, religion, gender.

This is a horrible crime to allow without some kind of repercussion.

Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:54:08 UTC | #948527

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 24 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 21 by Hobomidget

Why isn't this doctor fired. This is a clear violation of the Hippocratic oath.... Isn't it?

That's if this Doctor even took the Hippocratic oath....it isn't obligatory.

To a cretin like the Doctor at the centre of this debacle the following would be blasphemy...

I swear by Apollo the Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods, and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

There are many alternatives to the Hippocratic oath......whatever the oath she took, she is bound to be in breach of it. So much for having that virtuous Christian conscience built upon the morality gleaned from their-not-so-good book.....religious moral principles, I've shit'em.

Wed, 04 Jul 2012 10:15:57 UTC | #948546

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 25 by Red Dog

Comment 23 by VrijVlinder :

@Comment 19 by xmaseveeve : a young man phoned 999 on his mobile phone, from his hospital bed, and said he was dying of thirst and the nurses would not listen to him. The police went to the hospital but were assured by a nurse that the patient was simply confused. An hour and a half later, he died from dehydration.

Link? This sounds like it could be one of those urban legend stories. A reference would be nice.

In this case the police have demonstrated undeserved respect for Nurses. If they had been nuns the same would have happened.

Assuming the story is true, at least from what was described, I don't see how the police could have done anything different. Do you really expect them to over-ride the medical authority of a trained professional who is familiar with the case? In 99% of the cases (and cops get nuisance calls like this from people fairly regularly) to do so would have been terrible and probably endangered the patient, its just that in this unique case (assuming it actually happened) the nurses were negligent.

The police could never imagine a nurse or nun to be neglectful. And even less a doctor.

Maybe in the past nurses and doctors took their job seriously. But it is no longer that way. A patient has to have patient advocates or they do not get the care they deserve.

That is a pretty sweeping generalization and not at all consistent with my experience. In fact I had a somewhat similar experience with my MS meds recently. I get an injection once a week. I'm travelling and for insurance reasons it looked like it was going to cost me thousands of dollars for a few injections. Then even when I acquired the medicine, getting the injections was a problem. Some patients can inject themselves but I can't do it. I tried various approaches to just find a doctor's office that would let me bring in the injections and have a nurse inject me. I tried the doctor of the person I'm staying with first. Then I tried other doctors. None of them would do it and none of them seemed to give a shit about my problem. Then I put a posting on Craig's list for a nurse. The response was overwhelming, everyone wanted to help and the two nurses that I corresponded with in detail both refused payment.

I've also had other experiences with the healthcare industry, both working in a psych hospital (granted that was a long time ago) and various nightmares associated with insurance companies screwing me out of payment for things like MRI's.

Nurses have almost always been overwhelmingly compasionat, capable people. There are bad people in any profession of course but to say that nurses don't take their job seriously for all nurses is not true at all in my experience.

People are fallible no matter what they are and do not deserve, undeserved respect just because of their profession, religion, gender.

Profession is different than religion or gender. You don't have to work to become a man or a Christian. I have respect for a nurse or a teacher. Its not based on any irrational faith its based on my experience that in general they tend to be dedicated overworked underpaid people. Which is not to say I take everything that a nurse or anyone says as beyond challenge.

Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:51:16 UTC | #948560

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 28 by Red Dog

Comment 26 by Ignorant Amos :

Dehydrated patient Kane Gorny died after calling 999 for water

Thanks. Definitely real and definitely an example of inexcusable incompetence.

Wed, 04 Jul 2012 17:34:00 UTC | #948563

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 29 by xmaseveeve

Red Dog,

This has hardly been reported. David Ike's website discusses it! as does 'Unexplained mysteries'. There's nothing mysterious about it. The BBC, apparently doesn't have time for 'human interest' stories, especially not on a quiet news day, of which there have been few, of late. I heard about this case on the local London news station, LBC.

I know, I know, it's the 'Daily Mail', but this report from yesterday goes into greatest detail. It is shocking and harrowing. Quite rightly, the Coroner has now referred the case to the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. (The inquest is still ongoing.) Could some kind darling please post a link to the following?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167643/Patient-dying-thirst-rang-999-Inquest-hears-mothers-fury-nurses-neglected-son.html

I'll have to be careful what I say about these nurses, and I don't know if it was one of them who said this (I assume it was) but a nurse asked the family if they were 'finished' (after they'd been with his dead body) and then turned to the matron, in front of the family, and said they'd go and 'bag him up' then.

As for the police - no, I wouldn't say they were criminally responsible, but I agree with Vrij that the police should learn from this, and not take the word of a person against whom an allegation has been made, even when the person is a nurse (or a sadistic nun, paedophile priest, or Dr. Shipman). The police could have saved this boy's life.

It strikes me that because the Christian woman doctor did something intentional, as opposed to reckless, what she did was worse. Luckily, her patient survived, but hers was a hate crime. Either way, it sends a shiver up your spine to think that you or someone you love could receive such 'care' when in a position of such vulnerability.

Red, I send you my love, as my brother had MS, but you're arguing with me over three blockquotes which I didn't say! I take your points, exactly! After your first remark, your argument is with someone else.

Wed, 04 Jul 2012 17:44:08 UTC | #948565

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 30 by xmaseveeve

Thanks Amos. He wasn't even given his medication? It's unbelievable.

Wed, 04 Jul 2012 17:58:49 UTC | #948566