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Go to: Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion

TheHardProblem's Avatar Jump to comment 145 by TheHardProblem

Comment #440774 by hungarianelephant

At the point when the "host" community has decided that they are "not welcome". (I am emphatically not advocating it, only pointing out that it is the logical consequence.)

What makes you say the Swiss will resort to unlawfull measures? anything in their postwar history that comes to mind?

It may be possible to say "you are welcome here and free to do whatever we say you can do", but that tells us nothing about what rules there ought to be.

Lets leave that to the Swiss then

The problems with Islam are various, from its misogyny to its harsh punishments and even its pernicious fatalism, but none of these can be removed by banning a symbol. This attempts neither the standards we have set for ourselves - by applying rigorously the rules that apply to everyone else - nor any effective action to remove the people who harbour it. It makes as much sense as hoping that you can change US foreign policy by burning the star spangled banner.

Who says the Swiss thought that the minnaret ban was the catch all solution? It's clearly a symbolic ban of a symbol. Burning one American Flag may not be of much effect, but in recent years I do think such repeated behaviour has led to a different stance in at least the political left. Surely Obama's reaching out is an effect of the islamic 'disgruntlement' with the US.

Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:06:00 UTC | #422269

Go to: Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion

TheHardProblem's Avatar Jump to comment 143 by TheHardProblem

Comment #440771 by Steve Zara

No religion can be equated with a fully fledged ideology because there are no religions in which the ideology isn't the subject of ongoing debate.

Nonsense, the fact that people debate about the details of their beliefs doesn't mean we can't call it an ideology.

Take a look at a map of the world coloured according to religious belief. Religion is almost always a matter of accident of birth, and the growth of Islam in Europe has resulted from significant immigration. There is a strong association with race. It is also clear that certain far-right racist groups are using Islam as a proxy for race. So the "racism" remark is not way off. It may not be true, but it is reasonable to have suspicions.

I don't find these suspicions usefull when I can find more then enough reasons in support that do not touch upon anything that's even near being racist.

If they follow the local law and regulations, what is the problem?

Indeed, and an ongoing democracy and referendum are a part of that.

I believe deportation is unethical. Even where legally possible, it exports the problem rather than dealing with it.

Why should the Swiss singlehandedly deal with the problem of Islam?

Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:44:00 UTC | #422260

Go to: Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion

TheHardProblem's Avatar Jump to comment 138 by TheHardProblem

Comment #440723 by hungarianelephant:
Bonzai remarked earlier on the thread that there is a point to banning symbols, namely that it tells people they are not welcome. But if they are not welcome, then banning symbols is just pussyfooting around the problem. Stop being a wuss and deport them. I doubt the Swiss people would vote for this, and they wouldn't get my support if they did, but it would be a much more rational response than banning parts of a building - which manages to convey a message of segregation and impotence at the same time.

Comment #440724 by Steve Zara

Not quite, this type of remark is often made against Geert Wilders as well. Most media and political figures accuse Wilders that he is racist against muslims and why he wont just admit that he wants to deport Muslims altogether.
Here Wilders makes a crucial point. Religion, in Islam's case, can be equated with being a full fledged ideology. Now we all should know that someone's religion or indeed ideological preference is not a matter of biology, so the racist remark is totally way off.
Secondly, because we can make the distinction between a person and his or her ideology. It is rational to say that we can ban/restrict/disallow the expression of a certain way of thinking and at the same time welcoming fellow human beings into your country that are free to do and like what they want in accordance with the local law and regulations.

So at what point does it become rational to deport certain individuals who adhere to the local law?

Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:50:00 UTC | #422237

Go to: Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion

TheHardProblem's Avatar Jump to comment 101 by TheHardProblem

Comment #440605 by Bonzai
"So it has nothing to do with Islam really. It is about eyesores created by immigration."

Not really, but it's a point that's not to be trivialized. Much can be read into what beauty is and how (much) we value it.

Thu, 10 Dec 2009 03:29:00 UTC | #422088

Go to: Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion

TheHardProblem's Avatar Jump to comment 95 by TheHardProblem

The present multicultural agenda in Europa is not creating a more aestheticly pleasing or safe place to live. Multiculturalism, as it is given form now, is creating a Europe that's becoming more and more a bastard of the world.

The minnaret ban is an preemptive strike against an ideology that holds a different concept of beauty and what truth is.

Instead of multicultural projects, Europe could build more in style of the original architecture, fund more literature festivals debates or national holidays, restore old/damaged castles (not kidding), have more time for european history, literature and languages at schools, and so on and so forth.

The Swiss do not need to tolerate the relativization of their own culture and landscape.
The Swiss do not need to think out the problem of political islam before any other vote.
The Swiss are having liberal democracy work for them, like it was intended, not the other way around.

Maybe a revitalized idea of beauty and truth is in order for the rest of Europe.

Also, some American posters have it too easy saying muslims are well integrated in the US or that minnarets should not be a problem. Offcourse, the US itself is almost totally made up with immigrants, the American culture has been a melting pot from the very beginning. And comparing the % of muslims within the US with Europe is silly as well.

Thu, 10 Dec 2009 03:13:00 UTC | #422080

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