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Triton's Avatar Joined about 4 years ago
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Go to: Belief In God Plummets Among Youth (CHART)

Triton's Avatar Jump to comment 38 by Triton

I am two thirds of the way through Katherine Stewart's book The Good News Club, and I have to say that while I rejoice at the news of this poll, I would not be surprised to see the numbers of believers among young people start to go back up again. The christian right has been mounting an extremely organized and effective attack on children, and the results could very well start showing up in polls in the next 10-15 years. Ms. Stewart's book has been eye-opening, and quite frankly I'm very concerned as no other groups (either non-religious or other religions) are going after the kids in this way.

I don't want to bring a bunch of negativity to this topic, as it is good news and the work that the RDF and other organizations are doing is outstanding, but the topic is youth, and I won't be a bit surprised to see those numbers climb back up in 10 years time unless secularists can counter-attack the religious...

Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:03:54 UTC | #947579

Go to: Moroccan girl commits suicide after being forced to marry her rapist

Triton's Avatar Jump to comment 145 by Triton

And from CNN

The girl's father said he "did not want to accept this marriage," which some have said was pushed in order to protect the family's honor. But "my wife, my family and the court of the city of Larache" wanted the union to proceed, as it did. "The judge decided he must marry her, and I had no opportunity to refuse the judge's decision," the father said. "I wanted to send (the eventual husband) to prison, and have my daughter stay with me until she became (an adult)."

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 05:16:27 UTC | #928217

Go to: Moroccan girl commits suicide after being forced to marry her rapist

Triton's Avatar Jump to comment 144 by Triton

Comment 142 by xmaseveeve :

That's it. 3.13am, on Sunday, on BBC News. There is a protest about it, by brave people. It's about time. The report was very brief, but it's a start.

And from their website

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 05:03:03 UTC | #928215

Go to: Moroccan girl commits suicide after being forced to marry her rapist

Triton's Avatar Jump to comment 143 by Triton

LaurieB,

Thanks for engaging me in this conversation, I don't really have anyone to talk to about this sort of thing so this has been fantastic.

Coming to the realization of how cruel human beings are, even here at home, is very depressing. And with all the insensitivity and greed in the world, it's only getting worse. But the impact magnifies when it is forced onto children. Amina was a child, and yes I would agree that the society that she lived in is very cruel. And I think that a lot of the anger and blame and finger-pointing and disgust and defense all overshadow the most important point--that she was a child and didn't deserve to go through what she went through, and there are most likely other children in that society that are suffering needlessly. There is simply no reason whatsoever for the suffering of children.

All of your reasons for the control/oppression of women are valid (as in, I agree that they are reasons men use), but of course none of them are good reasons...it comes down to pettiness, or jealousy, or greed. It's infantile and ridiculous, but then I see that behavior in men every single day.

I'm glad you brought up the point of honor/shame trumping parental/sibling love, this is another point that disgusts me. I love my daughter, she means the world to me and much of what I do is in some way related to her. I would die for her. I know that's easy to say when I'm sitting here on my sofa all safe and sound, but I know in my heart that if I could sacrifice my life for hers, I would do it without a thought. She has had two close calls in her lifetime, instances where an accident could have seriously harmed her and it makes me sick to think about them even now. So when I think of being in a situation where I would have to let my daughter marry her rapist for further abuse, I am quite certain that I would do everything I could to protect her, even if it meant my life. Again, that is easy to say now, but I cannot fathom just letting her do that, I would be sick. I don't know Amina's situation, perhaps her parents truly had no alternative, perhaps the baddies threatened to harm their other kids or worse. But even if her parent's made the best or only decision they could, what about the other parents that are in that situation who gladly hand over their daughter who brought "dishonor" to them? How in the hell could you do that as a parent?

This brings me to my next point. I'm generalizing here, I'm not talking about any particular people or situation. There are people out there who are willing to do atrocious things, to put themselves and others in harm's way, to kill or be killed, in order to defend their god/prophet/book/etc. So they're willing to do these horrible things, or endure horrible things, for a god or prophet who has never contacted them or done anything for them, ever. For a book written by their fellow men. For the promise of a paradise afterlife or the threat of eternal torment, neither of which can be proven in any way. So they are willing to do all this, BUT THEY ARE UNWILLING TO PROTECT AND DEFEND THEIR OWN CHILDREN. Their own children, that they can see and love and enjoy every day.

And so, I can't answer your questions of course. I would love to say that the women couldn't do anything to stop the harm coming to the children, but I think we all know that's not true. I do get encouraged about change, with the technology you spoke up, and the protests we've seen for human rights, etc. I just hope for a happy ending and for that ending to come soon.

I started reading about our Founding Fathers because I was getting sick of religious people claiming that our nation was born a christian nation, which just didn't make sense to me. So I started reading, and was not surprised that their claims are completely false. And I also neglected our history...I never really cared about it to be honest, and living many years in England led me to be more interested in British history. But now that I have read much of our own history and our founders, I've found it fascinating....our Founding Fathers were amazing. How was the other Jacoby book? Freethinkers was excellent.

William

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 04:54:34 UTC | #928212

Go to: Moroccan girl commits suicide after being forced to marry her rapist

Triton's Avatar Jump to comment 140 by Triton

LaurieB,

I ALWAYS have a lot of reading ahead of me...:) I am looking forward to reading Harris' book, and I am particularly interested to see if (or how) it applies to the topic of this thread. I understand societies treat people a certain way because of doctrine and tradition and whatever, but how can the collective free will not overcome the cruelty that exists? Unless the free will, or morality, is overridden by the others. I can understand a society's few exhibiting cruel behavior, but how can the majority be cruel by action or by accepting the action? In Amina's case, how many were cruel by action or acceptance of the action (rapist, judge, jury, parents, etc)? I understand completely that acceptance of cruel behavior in these situations can be attributed to one's fear of being harmed, but if I want to believe that the majority are not cruel and are even repulsed by cruelty, then how can the few cruel people cause fear in the rest? How can the majority's free will not cause abolishment of cruelty?

Now I realize that I'm being naive and/or idealistic to a certain extent, things are the way they are because they've always been so and change takes a lot of effort. I guess what I'm getting at is I'm interested to find out if Harris touches on any of this in his book.

I'm not sure about lighthearted books, but I have plenty of books that aren't so serious as the ones you recommended. I am just finishing up some Hitchens, and will continue with my current interest, which is books about our Founding Fathers.

Like you, I think the conservatives would actually like to go go back to the dark ages where they had the power, they were worshiped in a way, they were in control of everything and everybody. And I think that is a kind thought compared to the fact that a huge amount of the lower classes believe in their views, and therefore would probably not resist. Now THAT scares the crap out of me. But I would be part of your resistance in the Brave New World (one of my favorite books) should it come to that....:)

I agree with your comments about women, and that is just another thing that frustrates me about religion. Women were actually revered and worshipped in ancient societies, and they even had prominent positions in the early church according to Professor Bart Ehrman's books, before early scribes changed text to make them subordinate. For what? What is so damn offending about women that they need to be oppressed? What is so threatening about them?

Dammit, I've been caught rambling....my apologies...

William

Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:53:14 UTC | #928108

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