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adzcliff's Avatar Joined almost 7 years ago
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Intelligent Design in Craig Venter's Lab? - last commented 25 May 2010 04:50 PM

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Go to: Update - Podcast June 5 Interview with Peter Boghossian - "Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know"

adzcliff's Avatar Jump to comment 47 by adzcliff

Thanks again Zeuglodon and Layla

I think I'm aware of the 'faith defence' but tend to think many unthinking faithful are neither espousing or defending anything - just sharing preferred belief as if realities can be as we wish them. I sort of get that claim is implicit in belief, but then we have the unthinking faithful who might say "I don't know God exists, but I believe he does". It's as if they're caveating their belief with the possibility that it might not be true. Of course, if they thought about their words for a second, they'd realise it's an oxymoron. In other cases (Layla), I don't think they are saying I think it really IS so, I think many are saying I HOPE it really is so.

All that said, you guys are tying me in knots and I do keep coming up against versions of 'pretending' as I think...

Wed, 23 May 2012 16:37:30 UTC | #943124

Go to: Update - Podcast June 5 Interview with Peter Boghossian - "Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know"

adzcliff's Avatar Jump to comment 41 by adzcliff

Comment 40 by Zeuglodon :

Thanks Zeuglodon.

I guess I don't feel compelled to find a word to fit Boghossian's definition. I suppose I'm more interested in understanding what the faithful actually mean when they use the word. If they're making a claim based on either version (i.e. unevidence-based belief or hope), then I'd argue that neither are sufficient to justify said claim. If they're just sharing belief with me (e.g. "I just have to take it on faith that this isn't all there is"), then I wouldn't necessarily feel any claim is being made, just conversation about a preferred existential position (probably 'hope').

Ta.

Tue, 22 May 2012 22:09:37 UTC | #942975

Go to: Update - Podcast June 5 Interview with Peter Boghossian - "Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know"

adzcliff's Avatar Jump to comment 39 by adzcliff

Thanks Zeuglodon, Layla and Quine

I think you're right to point out that it's hard to escape some level of pretending if we're going to 'choose' our beliefs based on our existential preferences - rather than what's necessarily plausible - but this also involves realising this position is unreasonable. I'm just not sure all people of faith do. Many just don't think about it; they just do it (you need cognitions to have dissonance). Reason, I argue, needs to be stumbled upon.

Perhaps Dr Boghossian (sounds like a Harry Potter character) might also translate my challenge as "I don't know, ...but I need to pretend I do", but that still doesn't satisfy me, unless the speaker has amnesia in between the first and second premise and never repeats the statement. This faith statement makes no claims, just stipulates preferred belief. In this context, I'd argue that faith and hope are synonymous. We might want to argue the etymology of that, but language is what people use it as.

Cheers

Tue, 22 May 2012 21:30:24 UTC | #942967

Go to: Update - Podcast June 5 Interview with Peter Boghossian - "Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know"

adzcliff's Avatar Jump to comment 28 by adzcliff

Comment 26 by Quine :

Comment 24 by adzcliff:

After all, how do we square his definition with the person who says "I don't know, ...it's a faith position"?

It "squares" perfectly, it is simply honesty.

I agree that it might be honest, but you haven't answered how we square that particular statement with Dr Boghossian's faith definition (which was what I was asking)? After all, according to him, the speaker would be saying: "I don't know, ...it's [me pretending to know things I don't know]"? Unless I'm missing something...

Tue, 22 May 2012 17:44:07 UTC | #942885

Go to: Update - Podcast June 5 Interview with Peter Boghossian - "Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know"

adzcliff's Avatar Jump to comment 24 by adzcliff

I think Dr Boghossian illustrates some useful and though-provoking points, but I think he's wrong to assume that faith is always synonymous with "pretending to know things I don't know". Perhaps it would be more accurate and universal to define faith as "needing to believe things I don't know". After all, how do we square his definition with the person who says "I don't know, ...it's a faith position"?

Ta.

Tue, 22 May 2012 16:08:59 UTC | #942853

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