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Kalasin's Avatar Joined almost 3 years ago
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Where many atheists and Protestant Christians can and should agree - last commented 18 October 2011 10:24 PM

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Go to: Malaysia deports Saudi journalist Hamza Kashgari

Kalasin's Avatar Jump to comment 68 by Kalasin

Dawkins can you use your influence in the media to get the word out about this? Nobody seems to know or care about this horrific incident. If we can get it on national television or some major newspapers that will be fantastic, and you have the contacts to do it.

Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:58:07 UTC | #918650

Go to: Where many atheists and Protestant Christians can and should agree

Kalasin's Avatar Jump to comment 39 by Kalasin

"I agree with all the points but I would change this to be "Where many atheists and and Reasonable People of Faith Can Agree" The way its worded now it sounds like the Atheists and protestants against the Muslims. The fact is that many muslims (Jews, Catholics, Hindus,...) could sign up with this as well. Its about fighting fundamentalism. The idea that there is something significantly different about Islamic fundamentalism compared to other catholic/christian/Jewish/... fundamentalists is just propaganda."

I said the following in the introduction:

Other denominations of Christianity may also share these beliefs but I have styled many of these points from a specifically Protestant perspective as I am a Protestant.


Some of these points are things especially important to Protestants, but I'll reiterate that people from other denominations of Christianity will agree with some (perhaps even much) of what I said.

Sat, 10 Sep 2011 04:41:53 UTC | #869092

Go to: Where many atheists and Protestant Christians can and should agree

Kalasin's Avatar Jump to comment 28 by Kalasin


What you wish to promote are liberal values, and yet the evangelical movement is not the originator of such values and works against them. That puts you in a predicament. It also means you're confused, and any cooperation with evangelicals can only be damaging to the atheist movement.

However, as I said above, atheists can work with protestant liberals, as we share the same goals."

Perhaps we should define what an 'evangelical' is then.

An evangelical is someone who believes that the Bible is true, that God exists, that Jesus was God incarnate in a man who worked miracles, died, and rose from the dead. Evangelicals believe that people really have done wrong things and need Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to atone for what we have done wrong. Evangelicals typically believe a number of other things but suffice to say that we have a 'high view' of Scripture, as opposed to the elements of the Christian church who Dawkins-esque atheists have formed an alliance with thus far.

And that really is it. Atheists often believe, mistakenly, that the only people who are prepared to work with them for reasonable objectives are people who do not take the Bible seriously. Now, that may be the case in the southern United States. I do not envy moderates who live there. In England, however? Go to your local Protestant church and get into dialogue with Christians on their views on the separation of church and state. You'll soon find that mainstream Christians, even of the variety who believe that the Bible is true and not myth, support the separation of church and state. We are perfectly prepared to support you on this. There's no logical correlation between believing the Bible is true and being a fundamentalist or an extremist advocate of theocracy, particularly in a Christian denomination defined by its opposition to Catholic theocracy as I have outlined.

Thu, 08 Sep 2011 11:32:21 UTC | #868547

Go to: Where many atheists and Protestant Christians can and should agree

Kalasin's Avatar Jump to comment 26 by Kalasin


I am hesitant to get off-topic, but to answer your question: many of the beliefs I outlined I hold for moral reasons. For example, I believe in democracy because it is under democratic government that people enjoy the most human rights (particularly freedom), I believe in the separation of church and state because that is fundamental to democracy and necessary to continue to propagate human rights, and I oppose the Islamisation of the West because Muslim countries largely have no concept of democracy (arguably nations like Turkey are exceptions.)

Would I believe in these things if I was not a Christian? Really that comes down to whether I would believe in objective morality were I not a Christian. The answer to that is that I believe that every human being has an awareness of right and wrong regardless of their religion or lack of it (although this can be dulled by repeatedly doing what one knows to be wrong.) Were I not a Christian, therefore, I would certainly retain my conscience. I know I had a conscience before I became a Christian.

However, I have quite carefully thought out philosophical beliefs which provide a basis for my belief in objective morality which rely on the existence of the Christian God. Therefore, if I became an atheist I would be caught in an irreconcilable conundrum between what my heart told me to be true and what I believed intellectually. The closest that I can come to describing the result in my beliefs towards objective morality would be uncertainty. I would probably live in a way that contradicted my intellectual beliefs, because nobody can behave as though human rights and morality do not exist. Therefore, I would continue to support the separation of church and state, the existence of democracy, etc etc but I would not have good reasons for doing so.

Thu, 08 Sep 2011 10:38:48 UTC | #868528

Go to: Where many atheists and Protestant Christians can and should agree

Kalasin's Avatar Jump to comment 24 by Kalasin

“I would happily form an alliance with any other liberals including religious liberals, if it means a hope of defeating fundamentalism and authoritarianism, our common enemies.”

“Kalasin should have said liberal protestantism. Protestantism did give birth to liberalism, but it also gave birth to fundamentalism and evangelicalism. I think that is perhaps what Kalasin is trying to defend. While we can ally with protestant liberals, we obviously can't with evangelicals or fundamentalists.”

While I appreciate the sentiment, I’m not your typical ‘liberal Christian’. I abhor Bishop Spong and people like him. To give you some indication of where I stand, I believe that God exists and that Jesus came, died and was resurrected. I describe myself as an ‘evangelical’, although possibly the term has different connotations to Americans because I live in New Zealand where evangelicals seem to be much more moderate.

Nevertheless, as you can see in the article above, there are many areas where we have common interests and should work together to achieve mutual objectives.

“The problem with Shariah based laws in the UK as I see it is not that non-Muslims are in danger of having it forced upon them, but that Muslims might feel pressured to take civil matters to Shariah courts instead of British law courts at the risk of being ostracised by their community and even their families, and that the system on which these laws are based is quite often unfairly balanced against the rights of the woman.”

I think this is another excellent point for why British Protestants and atheists should fight sharia, but not the only reason for doing so.

Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:39:09 UTC | #868496

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