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RestlessDeviant's Avatar Joined almost 6 years ago
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Go to: [UPDATE 9/14] - VIDEO ADDED - Richard Dawkins on Newsnight, BBC2, Tues 13 Sept 2011

RestlessDeviant's Avatar Jump to comment 139 by RestlessDeviant

@ SurfDude

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/643085-update-9-14-video-added-richard-dawkins-on-newsnight-bbc2-tues-13-sept-2011/comments?page=4#comment_870931

There is no true or false when it comes to the properties of things - they just do. Nature is not true or false, it just is.

Hmm I think your on dangerous footing myself.

Yes there are true and false fact about the universe and nature, but you still have to believe the evidence to 'accept' the fact.

And what when something you claim to 'know' is false??

A Christians view of 'Nature,' the Law of it, & the way it works will be very different to yours. They will also 'know' that they are right, and there conviction will be no less then yours. They will claim facts and how this 'are' as a certainty.

They don't believe what you believe to be evidence and you don't believe what they believe for evidence.

Ultimately these facts we accept are beliefs, and some people are right and some people are wrong.

Mon, 19 Sep 2011 18:09:51 UTC | #872744

Go to: Death of a Madman

RestlessDeviant's Avatar Jump to comment 67 by RestlessDeviant

Until I see the photos (If they exist/are released) of the body. I'm skeptical. It could be that he has been covertly captured, and all this is a cover story.

Something doesn't sit right with the idea of him being seemingly unnecessarily killed rather then captured.

Not really sure how I feel about it all. If he is dead, that they specifically shot to kill rather then capture.

Tue, 03 May 2011 20:26:34 UTC | #622691

Go to: Why I’d Rather Not Speak About Torture

RestlessDeviant's Avatar Jump to comment 318 by RestlessDeviant

Tweet from Sam Harris an hour ago

@SamHarrisOrg Sam Harris The Stanford Encyc. of Philosophy agrees with me on torture. Perhaps my hate mail can be sent here? http://bit.ly/kvYCzD

Mon, 02 May 2011 18:28:16 UTC | #622131

Go to: Why I’d Rather Not Speak About Torture

RestlessDeviant's Avatar Jump to comment 301 by RestlessDeviant

Comment 300 by Stevehill :

RestlessDeviant

Are you saying there is no circumstances that an individual, or government employee my find it nessacery to torture someone given that they truely believe the information could save lives?

"I'm saying if they do so, they do so in the full knowledge that they are breaking the law, and can expect to be held accountable for that."

That's a politicians answer.....

In any case from what you are posting now, I don't see how your views are different to Harris' or mine

Mon, 02 May 2011 08:09:44 UTC | #621912

Go to: Why I’d Rather Not Speak About Torture

RestlessDeviant's Avatar Jump to comment 284 by RestlessDeviant

Comment 273 by Stevehill :

To be crystal clear. I am not saying Sam Harris wants that outcome. I am saying that writing as he does provides (in my view needlessly and/or recklessly) false comfort to these people. Which green lights more of the same.

I agree to some extent that the current system is laced with corruption, but I think Harris article is not talking about the complications of Presidents getting held accountable. It seems to me you are making a leap of inference from what he wrote. Just take it more simply.

Are you saying there is no circumstances that an individual, or government employee my find it nessacery to torture someone given that they truely believe the information could save lives?

I share Harris pessimism about the future that we hope to live in. I can't really see how we are going to avoid some kind of nuclear or chemical attack, from some deluded nut bags at some stage in the future. Once that happens and millions are dead, I'll ask you again, should you and I survive

Would you still agree that a person, who had information that could have prevented this, under no circumstance should have been allowed to be tortured?

What about If it was your decision?

I take some comfort from Sam saying torture should remain illegal. I'd like him to take the next step and say that anyone who breaks that law should still face a fair trial, whatever the circumstances. If it turns out that there really was a ticking nuclear bomb and they saved a million lives, no doubt a judge and jury will take that into account.

But if you are going to engage in torture, you should most certainly be accountable for doing so, in a court.

I think both Sam and I would agree with what you wrote. Have you found somewhere that Sam states that he thinks people who torture successfully should not be held accountable?

Before that happens It might need the shift of opinion that Harris is trying to bring about. The example of the millions it too easy. What about if a police officer tortured a individual successfully that prevented a bomb killing 5 people, or prevented 5 kidnapped people being murdered. Currently this person would be vilified. Clearly they may not be allowed to walk free and must face some kind of punishment, but I would not trust Jury to make a balanced case with current thinking as it is.

That is why I like the collateral damage comparison, and it really helps sharpen focus about how horrible the acts that are currently taken, have become cemented already in the mind as acceptable.

Sun, 01 May 2011 23:13:47 UTC | #621789

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