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Go to: Andrew Copson and Anne Atkins discussing 'militant secularism'

TreenonPoet's Avatar Jump to comment 33 by TreenonPoet

I agree with comment 28 by esuther. The more convincing the argument against their entrenched view, the more 'aggressive' it is. (And there was I thinking that it had the dictionary definition.) Next time you are accused of being aggressive, you should take it as a compliment and say "Thank you very much".

Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:18:46 UTC | #918138

Go to: Proposals to make worship optional in schools rejected by Peers

TreenonPoet's Avatar Jump to comment 56 by TreenonPoet

Here are some of the opinions presented as if factual by those peers opposed to the ammendments which may have influenced some of the majority who rejected the ammendments:-

Baroness Trumpington said, in effect, that daily collective worship gives each pupil a background to which they might return in later life, and that it is very important to have that little base of knowledge of which they could make use when they had really grown up. The untruth is the claim that collective worship ("chapel") provides an important base of knowledge.

The Bishop of Ripon and Leeds told a number of untruths, including the one referred to by strangbrew's "Lying through gritted teeth there methinks".

Lord Touhig said

"the collective act of worship is a visual recognition of the Christian heritage of this country"

Lord Cormack said

"We do have a duty to expose our young people to what I consider to be the truths of the Christian religion" and "We would be moving in a very dangerous direction if we were to accept the amendments"

Lord Northbourne was more subtle, but in the context of collective worship, one can see the implied untruth when he said

"My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, can help me. In his speech he mentioned the universal values that are common to mankind, and also the moral values of our civilisation. Can he tell me where I can find those values set down clearly? This is a very relevant issue. The various revealed religions of the world set out a set of values, whether you like them or not. I have been trying to find a clear definition of the responsibilities of parenthood. I cannot find it."

(Lord Anderson of Swansea I will ignore as he arrived late and did not seem to know what was being discussed.)

Baroness Butler-Sloss said

"It is important that we all remember that the Church of England is the established church of this country. That is why we have the Prayers that we have every day. It is appropriate that that should be recognised in schools."

Given the context, she means that children should be subjected to collective worship of a Chritian nature because the CoE is established. Untrue.

Lord Lucas mused

"surely those who regard religion as an infectious and dangerous condition should, in the modern idiom, wish to immunise their children with the mildest possible form of the disease"

Although this seems to support what some posters have said about being put off religion, the real antidote is critical thinking.

Lord Elton said

"The institution of regular corporate worship, properly conducted, is enormously beneficial to the young"

Baroness Paisley of St George's said

"If people want proper guidelines for life, they are to be found in the word of God"

The Bishop of Chester said

"Probably there is a case at some point for a cool, considered look at the provisions of collective worship. However, it must be done in a way that enhances the spiritual experience of education...religious experience is part of it"

Lord Hill of Oareford (to whom my nomination for the New Humanist Bad Faith Award attracted little interest for a second year) said

"The purpose of this requirement [for the provision of collective worship] is not to force pupils or school staff to worship a deity, but rather to understand and experience the benefits that joining together, inspired by the positive values found in Christianity and other religions, can bring to the individual and to the community."

and has to be done every week throughout most of school life to try to make the children 'understand'?

Another error by Lord Hill

"Schools have the freedom, under the Education Act 1996, to apply for a determination from the local authority if they judge that it is not appropriate for the requirement for collective worship to be of a broadly Christian nature to apply to their school"

was picked up by Lord Avebury who pointed out

"there cannot be a determination to have no act of collective worship"

Lord Hill agreed, but did not update his response accordingly.

Lord Hill claimed

"It is a sensitive area in which schools have to balance the rights of parents to have their children educated according to their religious or philosophical belief and those of children who have the right to manifest their own religious belief"

but presenting the supernatural parts of religious beliefs as true constitutes miseducation, which is worse than the denial of education outlawed by Human Rights education legislation. See Article 2 of Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:37:31 UTC | #884677

Go to: Proposals to make worship optional in schools rejected by Peers

TreenonPoet's Avatar Jump to comment 54 by TreenonPoet

From comment 53 by strangebrew:

On a brighter note methinks they are not really succeeding spectacularly.

I wonder how many child victims would count as 'success' and whether there is enough concern for those victims.

Irrespective of what actually goes on in SACRES, the there is no justification for their existence, as Alan4discussion intimates. The basic facts about religion do not vary geographically, facts being universal, and I see no reason why religious education should be influenced by local affiliation statistics in a mobile and connected age.

That is not to say that the National Curriculum is sufficient. The National Curriculum sections on Religious Education are not only inadequate, but muddle-headed.

Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:28:17 UTC | #884601

Go to: Proposals to make worship optional in schools rejected by Peers

TreenonPoet's Avatar Jump to comment 42 by TreenonPoet

From comment 40 by the great teapot:

the notion that we should have an act of daily worship has always been news to me.

From the House of Lords debate...

Lord Avebury:

"The most recent Ofsted report on collective worship eight years ago found that 40 per cent of the schools inspected did not comply with the legal requirements and that in the remainder there were tensions and difficulties. It states that few secondary schools met fully the legal requirements for collective worship. Indeed, detailed examination of the evidence from 96 full inspections revealed that not a single school complied fully with the letter of the law"

The Bishop of Ripon and Leeds:

"So far as worship in community schools is concerned, Ofsted reports high levels of compliance with the law and high levels of quality of worship"


Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:36:14 UTC | #884374

Go to: [UPDATE - BBC link added] 300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

TreenonPoet's Avatar Jump to comment 36 by TreenonPoet

I first read the story when it appeared in the Irish Examiner in February. It said that there could be as many as 300000 'stolen' babies. Presumably, this excludes the children of jailed leftists of the civil war, but then it quotes spanish Judge Baltasar Garzon as estimating 30000 post-war thefts.

In March, Time said the war figure is tens of thousands and implied the number subsequently stolen was at least 1000.

In June, this source quoted the 300000 figure for the number stolen post-war as an estimate by a Barcelona lawyer who specializes in adoptions.

Persumably the Holy See will try to distance itself from the ROMAN Catholic Church in Spain and from the Spanish Government, as per Ireland.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:39:57 UTC | #881623

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