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Comments by keyfeatures

Go to: Growing use of Sharia by UK Muslims

keyfeatures's Avatar Jump to comment 147 by keyfeatures

Comment 146 by HuntingGoodWill :

There's a big (I think 1 million strong) Iranian minority in LA, but you don't see their influence on the state of Iran, so as much as your argument does sound reasonable on paper, in reality, it holds no weight.

They have a massive influence on the state of Iran. You're confusing a regime with a state.

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:39:44 UTC | #909485

Go to: Growing use of Sharia by UK Muslims

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Comment 143 by Schrodinger's Cat :

The trouble with your global one-world utopia is that is doesn't seem to work both ways. Muslims are free to come practice Sharia here, but you try getting atheist material into Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. It wasn't that long ago that even 'moderate' Muslim nations lilke Turkey were prohibiting this very site.

Get with the transnational programme SCat. Immigration of memes is always a two-way street, whether the parties intend it or not. There's plenty of atheist 'material' in Iran and I'd suspect in Saudi Arabia also, it's just not regime sanctioned. What you are suggesting is cultural speciation.

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:36:03 UTC | #909469

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Comment 132 by RJMoore : What income would low-paid workers have if there were no demand for cheap products? How would their economies develop without the income of workers who produce such goods?

If you look at the costs of production and the profit turned by Apple on these products I'd suggest there's just the teeniest little bit of slack in the system.

What were working conditions like in Victorian England or early 20th century NYC? What happened to worker's conditions as these economies developed and wealth grew? I presume the Apple workers are there voluntarily? What would they be doing without Apple?

It wasn't the increased wealth that improved conditions, it was collectivised labour power that (somewhat) redistributed the generated wealth. It's not the wealth of nations that improves the lives of individuals. There are plenty of wealthy nations where the majority live in terrible conditions.

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:40:48 UTC | #909445

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Comment 130 by Steve Zara :

What is truly wicked is tolerance of inequality within communities. It treats cultures as if they are protected species and must be preserved, even if that means that women in those cultures are treated as second-class citizens or worse.

I'm not sure the term 'community' is helpful. It's always struck me as odd that people refer to the LGBT community, when there isn't one really. There are always individuals with their own agendas and interests - some of which may overlap but a lot of which won't - it's just nomenclature that makes us define a community. I think, for example, of one of the few 'lesbian' bars in London (and even the country) now owned and run by a gay man. When he bought it up he immediately put it forward to be featured in some dreadful TV show and rebranded and redecorated with a business agenda, not representation agenda, in mind. His interests were quite different to many of the people who might go to the bar - what makes them part of the same community?

The same goes for self-defined muslims. There is such a variety of economic background, family structure, cultural influences and beliefs. I'm not sure there is any more sexual inequality between those who self-define as muslim than in society as a whole. Some muslim women will be very self-determined, economically autonomous, highly educated etc. Some won't be. There will be non-muslim women who have little say on the family finances, are abused by partners, do unpaid and unappreciated work in the domestic sphere and have grown up being told their ambitions and behaviours should be different to their brothers.

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:25:55 UTC | #909443

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Comment 127 by RJMoore :

Why or how is it enabled by the 'depravations of others'? Do you not consider that if the living standards of 'others' were raised yours would rise even more?

I typed deprivations, but depravations are probably involved somewhere too. Yes, it's quite possible that with a different economic model - not based on debt and using an alternative unit of common value (my own thinking is this could be time as in labour) - there could be an overall raising of standards. It depends on what you mean by raised standards. If you mean a happier society, less crime, people more able to think at a higher level etc. then yes. If you mean more 'stuff', then no.

How do you think the welfare states of the West would cope if borders were opened? As far as I can see, most Western states, with the exception of Oz, Norway, and a few others, cant pay their bills as it is.

Not all immigrants are poor. There's also another significant form of emigration that goes on from Western countries. It's not movement of people but capital in the form of tax evasion/avoidance to offshore havens. That's the real threat to welfare state sustainability. People like Philip Green who has channelled 1.2 billion pounds to an offshore vehicle registered to his wife in Monaco. As for countries not being able to pay their bills, this is a problem if you base your economy on a pyramid scheme and maintain a nation-state pretence that whilst allowing international trading of currencies.

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:12:58 UTC | #909440

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Comment 134 by Schrodinger's Cat :

Stuff all that 'Imagine there's no countries' bollocks. Who is going to come and rescue us from a dictatorial one-world government......huh ? Aliens ? What nation is going to come and fight on our behalf.....when there aren't any nations ?

So you think democracy is only maintained in the UK through the military threats of other nations? If other countries were not on the verge of invading should a little Napoleon step into power, the whole concept of universal suffrage and our democratic structures (such as they are) would collapse? This is a very odd way of looking at it.

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:53:38 UTC | #909437

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Comment 126 by mmurray :

You are joking surely ? I know lots of people and politicians who are opposed to spreading wealth across the country. People who think that they have earnt their wealth by working hard and don't want any of it to go to a bunch of slackers who have too many kids and bludge of state benefits etc, etc. It's a pretty common theme in right wing politics although sometimes stated a little more politely than this.

No, you're talking about spreading wealth across society here in the form of welfare. What I mean is spreading wealth geographically across a country. Either through regeneration / development (e.g. public building or roads or other infrastructure programmes), or the fact that taxes are paid to provide national services when in fact it's usually only very concentrated regions that generate the majority of the revenue.

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:49:07 UTC | #909436

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comment 120 by HuntingGoodWill

Were you ever told about being the subject of an in vitro belief-genotype breeding experiment? I'm just wondering if you are the answer to my puzzle.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:51:38 UTC | #909370

Go to: Growing use of Sharia by UK Muslims

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Comment 122 by mmurray :

The USSR stopped its own citizens from leaving. Currently movement controls in western democracies are mostly about who a country lets in.

The Soviets also stopped movement within the country. This is also what I was referring to. Whether a control is made over leaving point A or a control is made over arriving at point B, the effect is the same. There is no point having a freedom to leave A if you have no freedom to arrive at B.

I'd even give up shiny baubles for it.

And you would have to I think if you spread the current wealth evenly across the globe. Or at least that is my guess. Has anyone done the calculation seriously ?

Michael

I think your maths is better than mine. I can't justify being a global lord of the manor, wealth enabled by the deprivations of others. If we are talking about medieval attitudes, then this is the real feudalism. No one sees issue with attempting to spread wealth across a country. To suggest people from the countryside shouldn't be allowed to move to the cities for greater opportunities because they are full and overburdened sounds crazy to most. Yet this is the logic given that rich countries can no longer admit more of the world's poor.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:44:39 UTC | #909367

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Comment 117 by danconquer :

What staggering paucity of imagination! How is it that someone can advocate manned missions to Mars, at the same time as dismissing the elimination of man-made barriers on Earth as impossible fantasy!

I agree. Yet most people have no difficulty seeing the travel limits imposed on citizens under the Soviet Union as a restriction on freedom and human rights. The same reasons giving by the Soviet regime for its movement controls are the ones we are meant to accept now - security and the need to keep track of citizens and their whereabouts. Freedom of movement for humanity on our planet is something I can't help desiring. I'd even give up shiny baubles for it.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:06:49 UTC | #909348

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Comment 114 by Steve Zara :

I have a friend who designs and teaches degree courses in a London college. Increasingly he is having to deal with students who want to avoid certain biology courses because of the creationist beliefs.

Fair point. Sometimes it hinders careers then. So do other things like personality and social networks. Good career move or not I think we agree religious teaching has no place in schools.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:39:31 UTC | #909338

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Comment 111 by Schrodinger's Cat :

And yet.....only a few weeks ago we had a thread detailing how Muslims were the least likely of any group to become atheists.

Dunno SCat. Last time I checked me and Steve were different people. I realise you've probably mentally filed us under the same race category. It can be confusing, I appreciate, seeing the individual in the genotype.

Don't know the thread you are referring to.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:36:40 UTC | #909336

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Comment 108 by Steve Zara :

It's also very hard on the children. Learning religious nonsense holds them back in careers, such as medicine and science.

I disagree. Recently I worked with a young woman who not that long ago successfully completed a natural sciences degree at Cambridge. She is a devout Christian and believes in intelligent design. Her career and qualifications have not been hampered - although we might not say the same about the critical thinking faculties.

Observation suggests faith-think does not hinder careers in medicine and science.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:23:13 UTC | #909331

Go to: Afterword from Lawrence Krauss' New Book - A Universe From Nothing

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comment 54 by Schrodingers Cat

It's not cycle a followed by cycle b. It's cycle a on loop. This is why I say a block universe - our inability to see the block is because we only exist at one point of the loop. It's not linear, it's cyclical. Within a cycle the relationship to previous or next cycle does not exist. Unfortunately I'm bounded by our linear language with descriptors such as 'repeated'.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:56:32 UTC | #909323

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Comment 5 by Tanweer :

So, someone with a brain capable of doing more than choking on a pretzel?

Pas de tout. Remember most the French speak French too. Le Pen? Les grey cells can be quite petits.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:32:40 UTC | #909314

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Comment 104 by Schrodinger's Cat :

Oh dear........and this on the same forum on which people ( including yourself ) regularly point out how absurd it is that so many just 'happen' to have the same religion as their parents, and on which there are regular threads against faith schools, which are places where kids get indoctrinated further into the beliefs of their parents. Or are Tuesdays now exempt from critical thinking ?

Yet the statistics show significant numbers do not keep with the religion of their parents. How else do you explain the rise in atheism. Orphans?

It's not so much the indoctrination of faith schools that is the issue. Most people of intelligence are capable of questioning things in adulthood. It's the sheer waste of time spent teaching people nonsense when there are so many more enriching things they could be learning.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:16:15 UTC | #909311

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keyfeatures's Avatar Jump to comment 105 by keyfeatures

I wonder what breed you get if you in vitro an Islamo-Anglican hybrid with a rightwing, materialistic little Englander? Worth giving it a punt for science and reason.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:44:52 UTC | #909306

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Comment 101 by Schrodinger's Cat :

So now Muslims are 5% of the population. In 20 years they will be 10%. And if anyone dares do the maths.....all the lefties can think of is a pathetic bleat of 'racism' or the invariable 'Islamophobia'.

You disagree with Dawkins then because you clearly think there is such a thing as a muslim child.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:45:44 UTC | #909291

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comment 98 by Odalrich

It's not "our" country. "We" are not the host. It's a planet. There's a species called homo sapiens living on it. The borders and laws are arbitrary. Everyone has as much right to be in the bit of the world called Britain as anyone else.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:12:02 UTC | #909258

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keyfeatures's Avatar Jump to comment 97 by keyfeatures

SCat has clearly identified the genes for Islam. Will they be more successfully bred than the genes for communism, or Christianity or paganism I wonder...

Time for those all--important-DNA- results. You thought your father was a muslim, but our paternity test reveals he was in fact an atheist.

Science and reason. My arse.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:56:48 UTC | #909252

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comment 91 by Schrodinger's Cat

One of the benefits of freedom of speech is that allows you to see the true nature of a person's thinking.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:26:12 UTC | #909233

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Comment 88 by Quetzalcoatlus :

You removed the end of my comment. Then your reply is not valid. Go back to my original post and read it completly and do not take it out of context.

The context is not going to help your case. Do you not see an issue with comparing an adult female with a child? Whilst a child is not capable of walking into a police station to report a crime, an adult is. Women do conceal domestic violence for myriad reasons but that doesn't mean they have the same status - or capabilities - as children. Catholic child abuse cases came to light when the victims became adults and were able to act for themselves. Women are already adults. They don't need to be protected like children. Although some people don't seem to have noticed this.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:54:10 UTC | #909211

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Comment 82 by existance :

The only good thing I can see is that in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses at least, the internet seems to be destroying their control on information and they are very frightened of it.

The internet is going to be the best weapon against faith-based thinking of every hue I think.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:01:20 UTC | #909190

Go to: Depression Defies the Rush to Find an Evolutionary Upside

keyfeatures's Avatar Jump to comment 1 by keyfeatures

Depression and related hopeless mindsets seem to me to be a result of the fight or flight response being overwhelmed and therefore becoming unresponsive. It may well be that when fight or flight are no longer viable strategies, a despondent almost lifeless state is a better option from a survival point of view than continuing to put energies into the other options against the odds. Perhaps it's a more effective conservation of energy strategy that continues until the threat/danger has long passed.

It's a truly horrible condition nonetheless.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:15:05 UTC | #909171

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Comment 69 by mmurray :

I wonder what the Sharia laws are relating to the divorce of a homosexual couple and the custody of any children?

Kind of the same as U.S. federal law on the divorce of a homosexual couples I guess. Non-existent. As it doesn't recognize or legalise gay marriage no gay divorce law is needed.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:05:31 UTC | #909168

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Comment 75 by Quetzalcoatlus :

Let me give you another example:

The cases of child rape by catholic priests were mainly handled by Church channels. Either on the Vatican or on the diocesis. Most cases were handled in an illegal way. The priests were moved from country to country or hidden in small communities. The result was systematic raping during years and years.

And how many child abuse cases have been heard in UK Sharia 'courts'?

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:02:26 UTC | #909166

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Comment 71 by mmurray :

This is not true. Catholic priests (for example) can conduct marriages which are legally binding. Marriages can take place in authorised places by an authorised celebrant. These places don't have to be churches and registry offices.

Okay but the same marriage laws - and divorce rights - apply from a legal point of view. It's up to individuals whether they hold differing "in god's eyes" opinions. You can't perform a marriage that doesn't legally give a woman rights to divorce.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:43 UTC | #909161

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Comment 67 by Quetzalcoatlus :

The sharia tribunals would like perhaps in the future have more powers, if there are so efficient and cheap maybe the muslim community will demand that these tribunals start applying the law. Is this not a real danger?

Maybe they would. Future increased powers is not what is being discussed here. There's about as much chance of sharia criminal penalties being allowed in the UK as there is of public hangings coming back.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:40:45 UTC | #909159

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Comment 67 by Quetzalcoatlus :

I see your point. Then lets talk only about the current status of the Sharia tribunals in the UK. Why do you need that? How the sharia tribunals help? How the sharia tribunals can solve a business case?

Well they did in the example given in the link in the OP. The man says his dispute with a business partner was resolved much quicker and faster by the sharia arbitrators - costing only a couple of hundred quid and taking 3 to 4 months.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:38:09 UTC | #909158

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Comment 68 by mmurray :

comment 60 by mmurray

What if the husband has paid for cleaners and nannies during the marriage?

That would be different obviously. Is that common in a Muslim marriage ?

Hell yeah, if you know any well off Pakistanis. The Iranians I know also have really good deals in place should their husbands choose to leave - as well as equal rights to divorce written into the marriage contract (this sort of pre-nup is allowed under Sharia). They couldn't believe I wasn't interested in negotiating a healthy down payment as well as a substantial divorce payment. My own marriage was UK registry office so divorce issue is same as any other Brit. It was also motivated by our ridiculous immigration laws and inclinations to weasel out of asylum commitments. The concept of British justice doesn't hold much water with me.

Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:53:32 UTC | #909137