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Comments by MickeyDroy

Go to: Ireland's sons turn their backs on the priesthood

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 11 by MickeyDroy

I'm told that recruits for seminaries in Poland are collapsing too - because it is now so easy for gay Poles to go get a life elsewhere in Europe.

Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:47:40 UTC | #506377

Go to: Champion of UK burka ban declares war on veil-wearing constituentsd

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 7 by MickeyDroy

I can't see this as an issue for atheists. Just for narrow minded bigots. Glad to see the idea doesn't get much support here.

Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:24:51 UTC | #489488

Go to: What happens when you display "Forbidden art"

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 15 by MickeyDroy

Comment 6 by sirmailbox :

Russia has always been backwards, utterly rooted in totalitarianism. I don't think we can expect it to shake off those old filthy tendencies any time soon.

Yes, yes, yes - but you are drawing the wrong conclusion. A dreadful past and yet it is making big strides forwards. For every step forward the reaction is invariably just to say how far behind they are.

Enormous improvements are being presented as a bad static situation by big chunks of the Western media (often in cohorts with former Russian Oligarchs now out of favour with the current regime for meddling in politics and over criminal activities - such at Khordovsky's backers).

Of course, the quite deliberate manipulation of Russia's image by parts (not all) of the Western media actually makes russia look better in comparison.

Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:10:54 UTC | #488510

Go to: What happens when you display "Forbidden art"

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 2 by MickeyDroy

I'd feel a lot more interested if I didn't know just how devoted the Economist magazine is to bashing all things Russian and especially all things Medvedev/Putin.

I was a subscriber or 20 years and really loved it, but on a handful of issues they just get them wrong wrong wrong for decades. And it is personalities and personal agendas that cause it (made easier by rarely revealing authors names).

Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:07:52 UTC | #488317

Go to: The Narcissism of the Small Difference

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 12 by MickeyDroy

Hichens has been to N Ireland - so surely he knows that it has always been an economic and power war there, nothing to do with religion. He hints, with out saying it, that Religion is teh main cause in this things - something which is nonsense - the underlying fault lines strengthen the religious differences, not the other way around.

He is smart enough to avoid saying something palpably false, but nasty enough to let people think he has said it. Shame on him.

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:51:49 UTC | #485588

Go to: The Terrifying Brilliance of Islam

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 2 by MickeyDroy

Shocking choice of article.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:31:37 UTC | #483608

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 112 by MickeyDroy

Comment 109 by SourTomatoSand :

Mickey,

I object to your implication above that because somebody speaks against ANY issue in the way raytoman did, that indicates they are unhappy. Personally, I do it all the time, and I'm quite happy with my life. I share the same misgivings he does about religion, and I certainly don't regard organized religion as a "red herring." Though I tend to reserve such bile for Islam, and the Vatican, rather than religion in general.

I hope there aren't many issues he feels that strongly about.

He needs to work out why he is upset with believers in these groups as opposed to some of the organising institutions. There are billions of harmless happy believers out there, what's the problem with that? He doesn't seem to know the answer either.

Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:08:56 UTC | #482787

Go to: The Rational Optimist

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 17 by MickeyDroy

Comment 16 by Mr DArcy :

But that is one hell of a silly

argument.

Mickey, please explain where I've gone wrong. Thanks.

With the opening sentence. A great assumption to make if you want your model to come out with your conclusions. A stupid one to make if you want your model to resemble reality.

There are countless examples of where trading small amounts of a few products creates big net advantages for all.

Comment 10 by Mr DArcy :

Let's assume that all exchanges require equal values. E.g. one bicycle = one cooker = one ounce of gold, or approx £500 sterling. Those who are without the above £500 are necessarily barred from the "free" market.

Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:42:29 UTC | #482766

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 108 by MickeyDroy

Comment 105 by besleybean :

Hello again, Mickey. Incidentally, did I keep misspelling your name? Apologies if I did.

Don't worry - it's not my real name.

But I really don't understand how your wife is respecting your beliefs.

I'm really not much bothered if she doesn't. I am atheist after all. I can see why she thinks religion is important - I just can't see why it should bother me much at all. She is a working Mum, not a Jesuit priest.

(I have to say I am a bit surprised that many on this site turns out to have such Fundamental Atheistic opinions. The logical conclusion of Atheism leads me to think that religion is just red herring, not evil. )

Have you discussed what happens if the children start rebelling against church?

It's agreed that I'll sit back and watch. It might be fun. They are intelligent kids, they'll reach their own decision in time. And I really don't see much downside if the follow their Mum.

Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:51:05 UTC | #482243

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 104 by MickeyDroy

That last post is sad. I mean it must be nice to have the typically rare ability to reason and think for oneself. But not if you are going to be so miserable as a result. I really can't see the point in atheism if you don't at least want to enjoy your life.

Mon, 21 Jun 2010 04:50:05 UTC | #482172

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 101 by MickeyDroy

Comment 98 by Bonzai :

Atheism has nothing to do with in, what I find remarkable is the capacity to endure cognitive dissonance in the name of "love". I would just find it equally remarkable if a socialist would hang out at fascist conventions just because she has fallen in love with a fascist.

Cognitive dissonance is the norm for most people. Indeed extreme cognitive dissonance is probably the case with most people.

If you are unusual and unlucky enough to be able to see through all your own self-deceptions, then you have 2 choices: a) do what I guess most do - live with your hypocrisies in order to maintain your social life, or b) stick to your guns and accept that ordinary people will find you weird.

I'm like to think I am somewhere between self-deception and a) myself.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 19:32:54 UTC | #482069

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 99 by MickeyDroy

Comment 96 by SourTomatoSand :

I actually go for the "formal logic which results from atheism" thing. I mean, when I left Christianity I had to change my moral question-- which was "is it right in God's eyes?"-- to a secular one. That happened to be "does it cause suffering?" And I think that can be determined using logic.

Good luck. Sounds like you are still hankering for the same kind of certainty you had before. I am sure you'll find a very satisfactory set of moral guidelines for yourself. I found mine using less clear guidelines. But what I find is that my moral guidelines are often not anticipated by others who expect them to be closer to "social norms" than formal logic. And in turn my expectations of others are sometimes much more demanding, sometimes much less so that "social norms". That can cause strife.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:53:41 UTC | #482051

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 97 by MickeyDroy

Comment 94 by SourTomatoSand :

So, 90-97% of Catholics think that the Vatican has it wrong.

Even so, pretty cool.

No. No. 90% support the use of contraceptives in practice. That is not the same as they think the Vatican has it wrong.

You and I might feel that one thought commits a person to the other. But I bet a lot of that 90% don't think that at all. People lie to each other and especially they lie to themselves.

There is no use trying, said Alice; one can't believe impossible things. I dare say you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. Lewis Carroll

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:46:53 UTC | #482048

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 95 by MickeyDroy

Comment 93 by Bonzai :

In other words you do agree that there is principle at stake, for otherwise you wouldn't have negotiated or stuck to your gun whether you love her or not.

Not sure why you are so desperate to prove something here. It is a tiny thing, made smaller (not bigger) because I am atheist.
I don't know much about you - but surely you compromise yourself time and time again - I know most people do. I hope you do. Life is miserable if you put your principles before you social life always.

PS - this doesn't apply to anyone in particular, just an odd idea that occurs to me.
Is it possible that for some, atheism is the justification for peoples sad lives and their disengagement from society? Much as religion is the justification for the sad lives of a lot of old women. ( or maybe I just like the idea because I love irony.)

Surely, the point of atheism is that religion is just a dead end - the wrong question - not that atheism should replace it.
And surely everything that Dawkins et al write suggest that we should get our moral principles from the social environment we have evolved in, not from some kind of formal logic which results from atheism.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:32:58 UTC | #482045

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 91 by MickeyDroy

Comment 90 by Bonzai :

In my understanding accepting who they are doesn't mean I have to go out of my way to participate. You can go to church, it is not my business, but it becomes my business if you insist that I must go with you as "part of the package" and hang out with your church friends, show up at church functions, etc.

Sure - if I didn't love her, I'd stick to my guns, if I loved her a bit I might have negotiated. But I didn't want to take that risk.
And given that I was an atheist, it seemed even less important that I committed to a social ritual for one hour a week.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:03:10 UTC | #482029

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 88 by MickeyDroy

Comment 86 by Bonzai :

But that is not the same as what Droy does though.

I would draw the line if she insists that I must participate in her church life and rituals as a "part of the package". This would be the deal breaker because in that case she no longer keeps her religion a personal matter but aggressively trying to impose it on others. I have no respect for weak and unprincipled men (and women) who would put up with that and try to rationalize it.

You seem to have a very odd approach to marriage. You don't negotiate the details - you meet someone, and you accept who they are. Or you look elsewhere.

P.S. I wouldn't even sit around when she and her Jesus pals talk religion.

Never happened. Why would it? I'm not sure where you are from, but I'm guessing that you think that American Christians are typical of Christians all round the world. They aren't at all.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:43:50 UTC | #482023

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 84 by MickeyDroy

Comment 83 by SourTomatoSand :

My wife is a religious woman as well, and I sit quietly while she and her friends discuss it, knowing that while it may seem silly to me, it keeps her spirits up, and in the long run is harmless.

Frustrating isn't it. But personally I find it much more worrying that my Maths Graduate wife believes homeopathy works than the religion. That and the urban myth she believes in about lost young children later found in the store rooms of a couple of discount warehouses with one kidney expertly removed. That is an opinion I really find hard to respect.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:41:25 UTC | #481923

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 81 by MickeyDroy

Tithing? Does anyone Tithe nowadays? Do many American extremist Christians tithe? They are questions - I certainly wouldn't know.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:43:08 UTC | #481911

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 79 by MickeyDroy

Comment 78 by SourTomatoSand :

MickeyDroy,

I appreciate the viewpoint on that, but Catholicism is defined by your adherence to the hierarchy of the Church.

No it isn't. Not to most Catholics it isn't. It is adherence to God that counts (and to your local Catholic community).
What you seem to be doing is to mirror the Dawkins/theologian (or expert priest) debates, where the theologian is trying to prove the existence of God on objective grounds and to defend his church's institutions and policies in a precise logical way.

But you would get nowhere in a discussion with an ordinary believer, for whom faith is a sufficient proof and who is quite open to criticism of his church's hierarchy and institutions.

Updated: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:56:05 UTC | #481900

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 77 by MickeyDroy

Comment 75 by SourTomatoSand :

Honestly, I have a problem even addressing what individual Catholics might believe. Part of being Roman Catholic is acknowledging that the Pope is the head of your church, the infallible Vicar of Jesus Christ, which makes him your spokesman and God's loudspeaker. If you don't believe that, you simply are not a Catholic-- breaking from the Vatican while retaining their other, non-Vatican-related beliefs makes you Protestant by definition.

You are using a lot of unimportant clerical legalese that most people don't understand, let alone feel applies to them.
There is as much problem for Catholics to remain Catholics under the current Pope as there was for many Americains to remain Americans under GW Bush or for 13th century Englishmen to be English under Bad King John. If a Catholic doesn't approve of his Pope he either protests or lives with it. He doesn't need to change his faith.

To put it another way, you are demanding an extreme level of logical consistency from people whose belief relies on faith alone. That isn't how most people work.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:20:18 UTC | #481890

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 76 by MickeyDroy

Comment 74 by besleybean :

What I am asking is why your wife chooses that church. And I'm sorry, it isn't just an atheist or priest who cares. Obviously your wife does. I'll only let you away with this, if that happens to be her nearest church. If she walks past others, why?

Silly question - designed to prove some irrelevant point. She became a Catholic because that is what her parents and family were, it was the only church in town. It really doesn't matter to her (or I suspect to anyone) on faith grounds alone whether she grew up Catholic, protestant or Islamic. Her faith relationship is with her God, not her church institutions. The choice came later - I guess in her early teens - when she decided she did believe and that she wanted to overcome her doubts (all Christians have doubts I guess). And I'm pretty sure that she has reconsidered her belief evey year or so since. But please don't tell me she was ill-informed as a teenager (or now) - that is just insulting to pretend that teenagers are unable to think for themselves.

Again - it seems that you want to make religion the guilty party in various "tribal warfares". That is a pointless exercise, because there are always more obvious candidates. Think of any example.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:09:23 UTC | #481886

Go to: The Rational Optimist

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 13 by MickeyDroy

Let's assume that all exchanges require equal values. E.g. one bicycle = one cooker = one ounce of gold, or approx £500 sterling. Those who are without the above £500 are necessarily barred from the "free" market. You have to own it to trade it. Most of humanity is barred from the kind of markets described by Ridley because they don't have enough value to bring to market, apart from the labour market, where all they have to sell their labour power in order to gain employment. No new wealth is produced without human labour. Labour power (wages) is what is sold to the employers. Any successful employer gains more from his employees than he pays out in wages.

I'm not going to defend Ridley here - because I think his chairmanship of Northern Rock disqualifies him from any contribution on economics.
But that is one hell of a silly argument.

Sun, 20 Jun 2010 00:05:15 UTC | #481806

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 72 by MickeyDroy

Comment 71 by manilla_wise :

Apparently I live in a cave. None of the Catholics I know oppose anything the Church does, they are even now pregnant, deny completely the problem of child rape and are generally some of the most annoying people I know.

Let me guess. Your cave is not in Europe, not in S America, not in Africa and not in Asia.

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 22:45:12 UTC | #481780

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 69 by MickeyDroy

Comment 67 by besleybean :

Ok, let's try and move this on.

Is it the making confession to and/or the taking of mass from a celibate, Catholic(male) priest.

Does trans-substantiation only happen in these circumstances?

Otherwise, why not be an Anglican?

You know, only an atheist or a priest would care.
I suspect you are trying to put the blame for tribal rivalries and wars on religion. Israelis and Arabs don't hate each other for religious reasons, any more than Northern Irish Catholics and Protestants hate each other for religious reasons. There are far simpler explanations than that.

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:56:57 UTC | #481774

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 68 by MickeyDroy

Comment 65 by besleybean :

Well, that wasn't really why I asked.

What I was meaning, was really backing up what I said earlier about why they identify with that particular branch of the Christian church.

I'm still finding it hard to match the disassociation with an institution, yet labeling themselves as part of that institution.

I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't design the kind of pub I go to - I chose from the ones that are already there. If I live in a one pub village, or my family have a tradition of going to one particular pub, then if I want to drink in company that is where I will go.

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:51:58 UTC | #481772

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 66 by MickeyDroy

Comment 63 by manilla_wise :

MickeyDroy, I'm curious to know what evidence supports these claims:

Most Catholics are at least implicitly critical of the Catholic church. nearly all educated catholics use contraception. Most would support promoting condoms in Africa against AIDS. Pretty much all would rage against the pederasts. Most of the things that upset me about Catholic institutions upset most church going catholics too. [Emphasis mine] -- otherwise, word for word.

It does seem that my last post focusing on [educated] could be tossed out after all because you do in fact go from educated to "run of the mill" using "most" and "all" along the way. Still, the educated bit is interesting.

It is a funny way to debate isn't it. barracking one view - but failing to actually state the opposite.

In Poland, the most conservative of European countries I know contraception is normal - because I lived there for 16 years. Everyone I hope knows it is used by nearly all French and Italian Catholics, and most German Catholics too I expect. I'd be surprised if it wasn't common in S America - of course if you stated it was I might be feeling a bit foolish (but you prefer not to take risks yourself).

The same goes for the other statements. Have you ever seen any kind of popular movement or demonstration against sending condoms to Africa (outside the ludicrously backwards USA)? Of course not. You get the odd statement by the very odd Bishop - but be sure they get laughed at in their home countries.

There is no need for data - none of my statements was in the least bit controversial - which is no doubt why you concentrated on muddying the waters rather than taking an opposing view.

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:46:12 UTC | #481769

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 64 by MickeyDroy

Comment 62 by besleybean :

I don't know if 'educated ' Catholics is terribly helpful. But I would be interested to know what different Catholics consider to be the essential elements of their faith.

I'm sure the term "educated" isn't helpful. I know an awful lot of Poles, they are educated, attend church a lot, and mostly believing. Nearly all the married couples use contraception. I know very few Brazilians, educated or not, but I bet they nearly all use contraception within marriage. I know of no Catholics who think that condoms should not be offered as part of AIDS prevention in, say, Africa. I know of no Catholics who think that paedophile priests should have been protected.

I'm not saying that such Catholics don't exist, just that they are a tiny minority. They certainly exist within the Church institutions, but then a lot of Catholics are not happy with their Church institutions (just as they are not happy with their political institutions or their legal institutions or many other institutions).

If you list the things that upset you about Catholicism, I'm pretty sure you will find that none of them are treated as essential elements of their faith (not even, for 99% of them, transubstantiation).
And I'm pretty sure that the same applies for all the major religions.

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:35:28 UTC | #481765

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 61 by MickeyDroy

Comment Removed by Author

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:08:40 UTC | #481760

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 60 by MickeyDroy

Comment 58 by manilla_wise :

Comment 54 by MickeyDroy

I'm sorry MickeyDroy but you're not out of the woods yet.

That is not the kind of "I'm sorry" I expected for misquoting me.

You persist on trying to set me up as a straw man. And that just killed the discussion. If you want me to defend my comments - you first have to name the ones you disagree with - or at least make a firm opposing statement for yourself.

And "educated catholics" has nothing to do with it either.

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:08:35 UTC | #481759

Go to: My daughter's a catholic and want's my respect for her beliefs

MickeyDroy's Avatar Jump to comment 54 by MickeyDroy

Comment 51 by manilla_wise :

MickeyDroy

Why are you making things up?

Most Catholics support contraception, really, and how did you arrive at this conclusion?........

Most of the things that upset you about the Catholic Church also upsets most Catholics, are you joking?

Why are you making this stuff up? We need some data.

Nearly answered that - but decided you misquoted me far too much to deserve an answer.

Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:51:20 UTC | #481740