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Islam in Europe - Comments

PrimeNumbers's Avatar Comment 1 by PrimeNumbers

Pat is so right, so true that he's ceasing to be funny :-) He's very funny, but his words are so serious he needs to be listened to.

We all know that if EU governments don't act now, they'll be replaced with right-wing nutters who won't solve the problem gently.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:33:00 UTC | #109073

GSP's Avatar Comment 2 by GSP

"Modern Islam, if you'll pardon the expression..."

Classic!

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:44:00 UTC | #109080

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 3 by Bonzai

Good job. Unfortunately I don't know if any politician would be listening.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:49:00 UTC | #109083

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 4 by al-rawandi

PrimeNumbers,


That is an interesting point. I can't say I disagree.


But I would like to mention, what should European countries have done about the Jews to prevent a Nazi platform that entailed expulsion, and later extermination.

Basically, what to do?

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:51:00 UTC | #109087

Paula Kirby's Avatar Comment 5 by Paula Kirby

Ouch. Only intermittently funny. But absolutely 100% on the nail.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:55:00 UTC | #109088

robotaholic's Avatar Comment 6 by robotaholic

I don't know about you, but it seems less scary being invaded by Mexicans in USA than being invaded by Muslims in Europe.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:19:00 UTC | #109098

technogogo's Avatar Comment 7 by technogogo

Class, pure class. As always.

I do wonder if the forward projections about birthrates are genuine cause for concern in the longer term. I wonder if 2nd and 3rd generation muslims, raised in Europe, will care much for the more extreme variety of islam. Isn't there some evidence that these future generations will become more european? Of course this depends on us being able to prevent the creation of isolated and enclosed sections of muslims within Europe. That is something that deserve political focus.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:25:00 UTC | #109103

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 8 by al-rawandi

robotaholic,


Mexicans are mostly Catholics.

I can't decide if I like Mexican or Indian food better.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:28:00 UTC | #109106

Jez's Avatar Comment 9 by Jez

Just before you all go running around calling yourself 'islamaphobes'; remind yourself what a phobia is, words like 'irrational' and 'unrealistic' spring to mind, methinks there are better titles to use!

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:29:00 UTC | #109107

John Yates's Avatar Comment 10 by John Yates

al-rawandi,

It wasn't the Jews the allies had to do something about, it was those irksome National Socialists. Our problem was that it seemed highly unlikely that the Germans could instigate yet another world war. How many bloody world wars can one little European country start, anyway? We sat on our hands and hoped Hitler didn't mean business. He did. We can't afford to do the same with so many Islamic fundamentalist nutters in just about every corner of Europe. We must resist their attempts at Islamification (is that a word?) or else we might find ourselves with fewer freedoms than we enjoy today. Islam and "freedom", as it is traditionally understood, do not go together. Just how we're going to combat this problem is a bit of a mystery, although I'm pretty sure that it doesn't involve European political leaders caving into hysterical demands from the Islamic community.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:41:00 UTC | #109114

Eventhorizon's Avatar Comment 11 by Eventhorizon

Islamophobia my eye! A phobia is an irrational fear, my fear is entirely rational.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:02:00 UTC | #109125

Paula Kirby's Avatar Comment 12 by Paula Kirby

technogogo: Isn't there some evidence that these future generations will become more european? Of course this depends on us being able to prevent the creation of isolated and enclosed sections of muslims within Europe.
So NOT isolating them in faith schools might be a good start?

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:02:00 UTC | #109126

c4chaos's Avatar Comment 13 by c4chaos

reminds me of this classic speech by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

http://www.nrc.nl/opinie/article215732.ece

~C

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:10:00 UTC | #109132

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 14 by al-rawandi

The Smart Patrol,



I agree with your assessment of Islam and Islamicization. My question was, how do we (or you, Europeans) single out a minority, treat it as monolithic, and excise it from society.

If you read Mein Kampf you see one of the objections Hitler had to Jews was their refusal to assimilate. They maintained different standards, different clothing, and stayed in their own neighborhoods, while consolidating themselves in a few areas of business.

So I am not interested in why we should remove Islamicization, I know why and agree, I want to know HOW.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:27:00 UTC | #109142

lizaykpeeters's Avatar Comment 15 by lizaykpeeters

I do wonder if the forward projections about birthrates are genuine cause for concern in the longer term. I wonder if 2nd and 3rd generation muslims, raised in Europe, will care much for the more extreme variety of islam. Isn't there some evidence that these future generations will become more european? Of course this depends on us being able to prevent the creation of isolated and enclosed sections of muslims within Europe. That is something that deserve political focus.


on the contrary technogogo, recent polls in Belgium show that the youngest (generally the third) generation of muslims are becoming considerably MORE dedicated to islam than their parents, probably in search of their lost identities. The young moslimas too are showing off their dedication to islam by explicitly covering their hair in public, much more so than let's say a generation or so ago.
And then there is a constant barrier to cultural integration under the form of young muslims consistently choosing a partner for matrimony from their ancestral country instead of from among fellow-immigrants, not to mention from among belgians....

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:40:00 UTC | #109158

the great teapot's Avatar Comment 16 by the great teapot

I am all for islamification.

It sounds much better than that horrible islamicization.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:52:00 UTC | #109166

Goldy's Avatar Comment 17 by Goldy

The 7/7 bombers were not new immigrants, but the children of immigrants. There is a cultural identity reinforcement going on because they can't (and/or won't) assimilate. Britain likes drinking and the pub is central to British culture...a bit like the mosque, I guess. If you don't drink, there's something amiss.
It must be hard being a different colour AND following a religion that is so totally antithetical to the society you chose to live in/were born into.
It's not a 1 way thing - both sides of European society have their part to play in this "problem"

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:53:00 UTC | #109168

LBraschi's Avatar Comment 19 by LBraschi

@al-rawandi,

Some jews in Europe did not want to assimilate, true, but they didn't try to impose their views on the rest of society.

Most (or at least many) jews were pretty much assimilated into mainstream european culture -you could find jews from all trades of life. Most jews identified themselves as german/french/polish/whatever first, and jewish second. A rich german jewish businessman and a poor polish jewish communist had little in common.

With islam, it is different. Most muslims feel themselves as muslim first, and french/german/whatever a distant second (if at all). Not only that, they would like to impose their views on the rest of us.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:22:00 UTC | #109182

MelM's Avatar Comment 18 by MelM

See also Pat's: "O Dhimmi Canada"
This was added to YouTube Jan 19, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUTFcgE1F7w

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:22:00 UTC | #109181

dazzjazz's Avatar Comment 20 by dazzjazz

I love listening to Pat Condell. As I live in Australia, some of his references to European events and statistics are lost on me. I'd love to see him take his rants a step further and provide some kind of footnotes. I know it's anal but I'm just wanting to learn!

Go Pat!

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:27:00 UTC | #109187

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 21 by al-rawandi

LBraschi,


I accept that. The Jews did not try to impose Halacha on greater Europe. Then again, there were not that many Jews either, and even less that lived by Halacha.

There is the sense that Muslims believe themselves Muslims first, and German, or French second. That is a problem. The question is, what to do.

I have asked what to do 3 times and have received no replies as to "What to do". Violent expulsion, re-education camps, mandatory classes, denial of services until an allegiance is given?

I think once we look at the options, they are limited as to what wouldn't make us just like a totalitarian culture.

My guess is addressing religion early on in the educational system, and making education free and mandatory so that they get well over a decade of European culture and morals to at least compete with the Shariah mentality.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:28:00 UTC | #109188

Goldy's Avatar Comment 22 by Goldy

There is the sense that Muslims believe themselves Muslims first, and German, or French second. That is a problem. The question is, what to do

In China, they are Chinese first, muslims second. Posters in mosques telling them to be patriotic Chinese as number 1 priority.
Mind you, China doesn't have the best record on human rights....
Indigenous imams, less racism, more acceptance of their religion (look at the fuss when a mosque is to be built. No fuss when a Catholic church is built, or a Ukrainian Orthodox church etc...as in Bradford), guidelines to follow that are not overly constrictive (muezzin to call using natural voice and within council guidelines) - the law of the land applied equally (no ignoring becasue they are not white and no cultural sensitivity - apply the law equally). Break down the barriers and soon they'll become one of us...mwahahahah! :-D
But seriously, make them feel at home and the 2nd generation will break down. After all, how many muslims in France, the UK, Germany, Austria are strict ones? How many agitators do we hear about?

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:38:00 UTC | #109199

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 23 by al-rawandi

Goldy,


Good points. I like them. I think people complain about the Muslims, but don't fully understand what it would entail to 'excise' the problem.


One must make them feel "British" first. They must be entered into a compulsory education system, and this system must teach them the country's history, laws, and culture, both positive and negative. Science must also be a major portion, not like here in the US, where we skip it to a large degree.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:50:00 UTC | #109211

LBraschi's Avatar Comment 25 by LBraschi

The 'what to do' question isn't easy, and if I had a good answer to it I could run for office in my country.

What can we do? First of all, we should stop giving them so much media coverage whenever they feel so much mortaly offended about this or that. More important, politicians should know better than siding with the intolerants for the sake of 'multiculturalism'.

We should also ban any religious school, to avoid early labelling of children as members of any religion. Children should mix together in school regardless of the religous affiliation of their parents.

And regarding the truly vitriolic imams preaching against their adopted country, it's all OK until they actually start encouraging jihad, suicide bombings, the killings of jews-infidels-apostates-gays-women etc.

The sad fact of all of this is that it will take years to achieve a 'tame' islam -in the sense most christians are 'tame' in most of europe. But it is imperative that we succeed or die trying.

[Edit: corrected typo]

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:54:00 UTC | #109214

MelM's Avatar Comment 24 by MelM

"Spine" in the U.S.? Maybe; but then again, maybe not.

I haven't published this yet but I'm reminded of it now. This is from an email to me by one of those involved in last spring's "hate speech" flap surrounding a Pat Condell video. I had sent an email to this person (a public official in the U.S.) strongly objecting to his use of the term "racism".

I understand that race is not religion, but I think I
made my point clearly enough and believe the term
"racism" is being used more and more the way I did. As
to how that has happened, it is intuitive. It feels
like racism and ones natural response (at least mine,
and others I've heard use the word similarly) is that
the term applies.
I would think that even convinced nominalists would shudder at this.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:54:00 UTC | #109213

Goldy's Avatar Comment 26 by Goldy

And regarding the truly vitriolic imams preaching against their adopted country, it's all OK until they actually start encouraging jihad, suicide bombings, the killings of jews-infidels-apostates-gays-women etc

A handful of vitriolic imams. Indeed, less than a handful - a couple of outspoken ones and a bunch of gung-ho young hot heads who would have joined the BNP if they had been white.
Remember, all these accusations, and more, were levelled at teh Jews, at the Catholics (I still remember a guy I worked with in Aberdeen telling me he could always tell a Catholic by their appearance - they "looked" different), at teh Protestants, at the Christians, at the athiests...
The only thing that stands out is that they are/were "different" in some way. None of the Muslims I knew were that indoctrinated (but then, I guess the hard line ones didn't want to mix with the likes of me). Last one I worked with, a lass called Farideh, had left Iran because of her society's treatment of women. She was still a muslim in the UK but not blind to the failings (bit like my wife with Mao).
Can't judge everyone by the actions of a tiny minority - that is a very devisive action and does nothing to endear either side to each other.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:04:00 UTC | #109218

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 27 by al-rawandi

LBrashci,


Excellent. I agree, no religious schools. No gender segregation.

Right now when Muslims protest and say "I don't want my daughter to be in school with boys" we say "Then leave, because this is our culture and country, and that is how we do it."


Right now all the tolerance is one way. When western woman goes to a Muslim country (strict) she is expected to wear a hijab (fair enough, it's their country). But when a Muslim comes here, she demands (or husband maybe) to wear the Hijab, we should say, when we come to Saudi Arabia, we will dress accordingly, you must do the same, off with the Burqa.

If we must respect their culture, they must respect ours. People are afraid to say "If you don't like it leave." They do not have a "right" to be in a western country, they have the "privelege". They need to be reminded of that privelege. Thus the law of the land needs to be the law for all. "No hijabs, evolution will be taught, sexes will mix, alcohol and pork will be served, and if you don't like there is the fucking door.!"

That is my solution.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:05:00 UTC | #109219

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 28 by Steve Zara

Right now when Muslims protest and say "I don't want my daughter to be in school with boys" we say "Then leave, because this is our culture and country, and that is how we do it."


I don't feel comfortable with that. Views should be argued as forcefully as you like, but in a democratic society, people are entitled to their views, unless they are encouraging hatred. And "this is our culture and our country" has been used to promote all kinds of views, such as slavery and homophobia...

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:21:00 UTC | #109225

MelM's Avatar Comment 29 by MelM

Is the "New Atheism" getting anywhere on the continent? Less religion means less of a problem.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:23:00 UTC | #109226

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 30 by al-rawandi

Steve,


Why should we allow the segregation of the sexes in our schools? It is detremental to children, it is additionally costly, it is wrong. It encourages misconceptions of the opposite sex.

In my country I hope that our tolerance is enjoined on people. You are free to do as you please at home. But keep you religion in your home.

If Muslim men don't want to shake hands with women, fine. But none of that nonsense should be institutionalized or be allowed to be so.

I accpet tolerance of people and encourage tolerance of Muslims and their beliefs (those that don't harm or encourage to violence) but there needs to be a line. In America, men and women mix. End of story, don't expect to come over on a falafel boat and tell people what they can and can't do in their schools.

I am usually on the other end of this discussion. I did stop short of re-education camps.

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:29:00 UTC | #109232