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← Discussion on PZ Myers being expelled from Expelled

Discussion on PZ Myers being expelled from Expelled - Comments

LeeC's Avatar Comment 1 by LeeC

No fair... I'm at work, and cannot see this.

It will have to wait...


Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:04:00 UTC | #140498

InYourFaceNewYorker's Avatar Comment 2 by InYourFaceNewYorker

I love the hypocrisy.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:09:00 UTC | #140499

sent2null's Avatar Comment 3 by sent2null

The video mentioned straight from Harvard's site, it is awesome. The motor protein's walking gave me chills (in a completely non religious way) ;)

There is a version set to music (great) and a narrated version that describes the processes animated. (transcription, protein construction, motor proteins...etc.)


For the CGI buffs among our number, the following link presents details of the creation of the animation.


Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:19:00 UTC | #140502

mmurray's Avatar Comment 4 by mmurray

Was it the first video they used ? Interesting to note that it opens saying it is for educational purposes only and any commercial use is strictly prohibited.


Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:23:00 UTC | #140503

Gymnopedie's Avatar Comment 5 by Gymnopedie

The more I hear about this nonsense and see the videos, the funnier the whole thing is. How freakin' absurd. The Creationists are liars and hypocrites, what a surprise!

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:26:00 UTC | #140505

Dr Benway's Avatar Comment 6 by Dr Benway

Well now things make sense. "Expelled" is rolling out in this strange manner with showings of a partially finished version to friendly crowds, because the production company hasn't secured permission to all its contents - e.g., "Bad to the Bone," the Harvard animation, and likely more.

They're probably scrambling to raise money to sort these legal matters. No wonder they're nervous.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:27:00 UTC | #140506

Elles's Avatar Comment 7 by Elles

I think that it's absolutely splendid.

I think I'm going to go outside and dance in the moonlight.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:45:00 UTC | #140509

mmurray's Avatar Comment 8 by mmurray

While watching that movie I was puzzling over the scale of what I was watching. In case others are interested the mitochondria are (according to wikipedia) around 1-10 micrometres. A micrometre is one millionth of a metre or 10^{-6} metres. By comparison a carbon atom is 70 pico metres or 70 x 10^{-12} metres or about 10^{-10} m. So a mitochondria is about 10,000-100,000 atoms across or alternatively you can line up around 100-1000 of them in a millimetre.


Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:47:00 UTC | #140511

Bad's Avatar Comment 9 by Bad

I believe that someone said that the animation sequence is LIKE the version Dembski pilfered, but not the same: they may have paid to remake a lookalike version. These guys do have decently deep pockets.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:52:00 UTC | #140512

BicycleRepairMan's Avatar Comment 10 by BicycleRepairMan

The motor protein's walking gave me chills

According to PZ, that particular part is somewhat misleading

I do have a couple of gripes, though. One is an understandable shortcut: the cell is far too uncluttered, and events proceed in too directed a mannerĂ¢Â€"there ought to be much more stochastic noise at the molecular level. We're seeing chemistry in action, after all.

In other words, I assume the "walker" etc is actually more or less "pushed" around by chemical reactions.. in the video it moves like a large mammal or something.(But really, I'm just talking out of my ass here, I have no clue, it just seems a little far-fetched to me)

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:52:00 UTC | #140513

Prom_STar's Avatar Comment 11 by Prom_STar

Wish I'd known about this video (the Harvard one) while I was taking biology 100 last semester. And unlike the Expelled guys, sending the link to my professor would have been within the realm of fair use.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:56:00 UTC | #140514

MelM's Avatar Comment 12 by MelM

Eugenie Scott (NCSE) was looking for a way in at Danville in the San Francisco East Bay area; don't know how it turned out. NCSE is not far away. See her comment to PZ:

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:09:00 UTC | #140515

wundergeist's Avatar Comment 13 by wundergeist


No, I'm not stoned. I don't mean that people will agree with it, but they may go watch the movie to be enraged at it, to see how bad it is, with the unfortunate side effect of enriching Ben Stein et alli. Expelling P.Z. might have been a publicity maneuver. I know that my first instinct (before I caught myself) was"I have to go see this, and write a detailed blog post on all its inaccuracies, which I'm sure are many."

Obscurity and irrelevance is what they fear most. We should douse them in it: Treat them like astrologers, alchemists, and other myth-peddlers.


Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:09:00 UTC | #140516

sent2null's Avatar Comment 14 by sent2null

11. Comment #148046 by BicycleRepairMan on March 21, 2008 at 9:52 pm wrote:

In other words, I assume the "walker" etc is actually more or less "pushed" around by chemical reactions.. in the video it moves like a large mammal or something.(But really, I'm just talking out of my ass here, I have no clue, it just seems a little far-fetched to me)

The second link I provided in the first post, mentioned this precise animation license taken by the creators.

"The reality is that all that stuff that's going on in each cell is so tightly packed together that if we were to put every detail into every shot, you wouldn't be able to see the forest for the trees or know what you were even looking at. One of the most common things we did, then, was to strip it apart and add space where there isn't really that much space."

The Myosin motoring along is precisely that, the chemical cycle of the components do indeed mechanically activate. They may be bumping around with other cellular components while doing it , but they do indeed perform locomotion (along the bound actin filament). Here is a separate video (also from Harvard) that illustrates the myosin animation.

Ultimately, the cell is a big machine, where these bio molecules are the cogs and gears, binding an unbinding as dictated by the underlying chemical affinities.


Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:20:00 UTC | #140518

satanhimself1955's Avatar Comment 15 by satanhimself1955

I'd bet that this little expulsion stunt is part of the movie's marketing campaign to get people talking and anticipating the film. Here's an earlier incident, and notice that Stein says these things will happen a lot more:

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:27:00 UTC | #140519

PsyHye's Avatar Comment 16 by PsyHye

Wow this movie sounds like an utter disgrace.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:32:00 UTC | #140520

sent2null's Avatar Comment 17 by sent2null

What I find most egregious about these tactics to stifle the presentation of opposing views by the religious is that it indicates on their part a lack of faith. If it is true that their position is the correct one, then there would be no need to stack the deck to "win", their truth would naturally arise. However, over and over what we see , is that reason is presented, an appeal to the empirical results is made by advocates of reason and the advocates of religion must writhe and obfuscate in order to get their "truth" disingenuously presented before the data which without coercion by science, always points away from their views when objectively analyzed.

Quite ironic considering they are the ones supposedly with divine intervention on their side.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:41:00 UTC | #140522

lievemebe's Avatar Comment 18 by lievemebe

This is an excerpt from the creationist site

"Walt Ruloff, Co-Executive Producer, says, 'The incredible thing about Expelled is that we don't resort to manipulating our interviews for the purpose of achieving the "shock effect," something that has become common in documentary film these days."

Lies, Lies, Lies, from the creationist camp. What is their ultimate game? Please tell me that human nature has hidden knowledge, unknown to present day Darwinists, but known to creationists. But why are they keeping it to themselves? Sorry for my rhetorical questions, I am utterly baffled by their rantings.

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:42:00 UTC | #140523

Wosret's Avatar Comment 19 by Wosret

I look foward to the full video. PZ said the same thing I was thinking when RD called them "Second rate".

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:13:00 UTC | #140531

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 20 by Steve Zara

Comment #148051 by sent2null

They may be bumping around with other cellular components while doing it , but they do indeed perform locomotion (along the bound actin filament).

Sure, but nothing like as illustrated in the film. It is misleading to the point of being factually wrong.

Ultimately, the cell is a big machine, where these bio molecules are the cogs and gears, binding an unbinding as dictated by the underlying chemical affinities.

I think that is an unhelpful image, as it suggests a "clockwork"-type interaction that simply isn't the case. The cell is mostly controlled chaos, with molecules whizzing around and bouncing off each other at phenomenal speed(*). The individual "cogs" are wobbling and twisting, the gears often "mesh" purely by chance, and sometimes wrongly.

I wish this were not the case, but the clockwork machine with cogs and gears image is positively harmful, and not just wrong, as it provided ammunition for the intelligent designers. "Look at all the machinery!" they say! I don't want to sound hypocritical, as I have said we should investigate certain matters even if they "give comfort" to creationists, but in this case the animation is so misleading that I would really be prepared to call it wrong.

(*) I have heard that if you scale a cell up so that a protein molecule was the size of small car, it would be moving around at several times the speed of light!

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:34:00 UTC | #140533

madame_zora's Avatar Comment 21 by madame_zora

I agree with wundergeist that we should treat this film with indifference, I sure won't waste my money on it. Now, if it gets posted online for free, then I'll see what the scuffle is about. They're simply trying still to promote the idea that there is a legitimate public debate going on when there isn't, and they're using the Marilyn Manson approach of advertising. If you create enough controversy about yourself, you don't have to spend any money at all on advertising. Let's not be so cheap.

edit- I'm really looking forward to the full 90 min. discussion.

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:57:00 UTC | #140539

DamnDirtyApe's Avatar Comment 22 by DamnDirtyApe

I have to disagree with wundergeist the moment I heard the hilarious 'oh' in the video I knew there was a very specific group of people who need to know about this movie.

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:02:00 UTC | #140541

Logicel's Avatar Comment 23 by Logicel

Nice clip. Loved Dawkins saying, He (the director) was doing Lord Privy Seals all over the place.


Goodness knows, they must be insecure.

Regarding all publicity is good publicity (in the sense that it will drive film revenues), I consider that to be an insignificant plus for the side of these IDiots compared to the willfully shooting of themselves in their feet debacle they now have on their hands.

Perhaps the American IDiots have been so lulled by the last twenty years or so of the predominance of the so-called Moral Majority, that they have no idea what they are up against with the viral negative publicity made possible rather recently by the Web.

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:25:00 UTC | #140545

darlets's Avatar Comment 24 by darlets

can Harvard sue these guys already!!!

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:43:00 UTC | #140547

Vadjong's Avatar Comment 25 by Vadjong

It's not that they shot themselves in the foot. It looks more like a suicide bomb attempt that apparently is all the fashion among certain relinutters.
[made up quote]"See ! See ! Big Science is crushing the poor little god loving guys. What brave martyrs they are !"[/made up quote]

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:33:00 UTC | #140554

kintaro_crab's Avatar Comment 26 by kintaro_crab

Oh my, I can just imagine the hypocrisy that would probably ensue if Harvard were to decide to sue the creators of Expelled.

"Headline: Big Science Tries to Sue Creators of Expelled!

Ben Stein staring in 'Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed', while questioned on the matter was quoted as saying "Those big meanies, they won't let us use their film illegally. Waa! Waa! We thought we had changed it enough from the original, by dubbing over all the audio with creationist propaganda. Darwinists blah blah, Devil worshipers blah blah, Nazi Germany blah blah, Holocaust blah blah."

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:49:00 UTC | #140557

Richard Morgan's Avatar Comment 27 by Richard Morgan

I still find this quite hilarious!
And I do think that laughter is one of our greatest weapons in combating all that is bad in religion.

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:56:00 UTC | #140558

Dr Nev's Avatar Comment 28 by Dr Nev

I'm still laughing! Infact I better watch myself as I have Bipolar and I may get myself into a manic state from laughing so much!!

Wonderful to hear this discussion from RD and PZ Myers.

I have a grin on my face the size of the curviture of the Earth!

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 03:41:00 UTC | #140561

Vadjong's Avatar Comment 29 by Vadjong

And I do think that laughter is one of our greatest weapons in combating all that is bad in religion.

Indeed. It is in the false notion of automatic RESPECT that faithheads feel the pain.
However, by some reflex doublethink they twist it into virtue, so they can feel like an apostle who is forced to deny Jesus three times before the cock crows, but in his heart still truly, madly, deeply .... .
It's the test that makes you a saint. It's the hardest spell to break.

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 03:42:00 UTC | #140562

Jiten's Avatar Comment 30 by Jiten

Thanks for the Harvard video link sent2null!

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 03:49:00 UTC | #140564