This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← Noah's Flood Debunked

Noah's Flood Debunked - Comments

Michael Conrad's Avatar Comment 1 by Michael Conrad

Cue typical reply of a religious person: /This part/ isn't meant to be taken literally. :-/

Fri, 01 May 2009 06:29:00 UTC | #355164

flying goose's Avatar Comment 2 by flying goose

The flood happened, just not in the way the Myths say it did. Could it just be that the flood stories arise from humanity's experience of the end of the Ice Age? An event so catastrophic that is was preserved in the mythological memory.

Couldn't that be a naturalistic explantion?

Fri, 01 May 2009 06:55:00 UTC | #355184

antcowan's Avatar Comment 3 by antcowan

Potholer54 does a lot of good videos like this. I think his voice sounds like a BBC newsreader.

Fri, 01 May 2009 06:59:00 UTC | #355185

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 4 by Bonzai

fg

Could it just be that the flood stories arise from humanity's experience of the end of the Ice Age?


I think it is much more prosaic that that. All ancient civilizations were found around rivers. Rivers sometimes flood. For our ancestors whose universe was the very small patch of land they inhabited, a major flood would be like the end of the world. This horrible experience was than preserved, exaggerated and ebellished as myths.

Fri, 01 May 2009 07:01:00 UTC | #355187

ColdFusionLazarus's Avatar Comment 5 by ColdFusionLazarus

Cue typical reply of a religious person. "They can't have disproved The Flood. It happened. It says so in The Bible"
(I had my best John MacKay Ozzie accent on there)

Fri, 01 May 2009 07:07:00 UTC | #355192

flying goose's Avatar Comment 6 by flying goose

Bonzai That could be it.

Have you ever read Sarum by Edward Rutherford, that begins at the end of the ice age, and has its characters create a myth to explain the sudden flooding.

I am no expert but I have read soemwhere that the rise in sea levels might have been very sudden, the Balck sea was apparently an in land sea disconnected from the Med. The at the end of the Ice the narrow straits connecting the two seas would have been like a massive waterfall as the Med. started to flood in.

I dont know but I love to speculate and myths of floods abound so I look to the ntural world to explain the myths rather than as the fundies do look to the myth to explain the world.

Fri, 01 May 2009 07:35:00 UTC | #355211

zengardener's Avatar Comment 7 by zengardener

"Could it just be that the flood stories arise from humanity's experience of the end of the Ice Age?"

Flooding is responsible for a huge portion of human deaths, even today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding#Deadliest_floods
It is no surprise that a myth about an Epic flood survives. Everyone has a flood story, and if you like to sit around, drink and try to top each other's flood stories, like my family does, you will eventually end up with Noah.

by the way. the ice age didn't end on one particular day. 8P


edit after i refreshed the thread:
" a massive waterfall as the Med. started to flood in" that sounds like a really good clue.

Fri, 01 May 2009 07:43:00 UTC | #355213

ColdFusionLazarus's Avatar Comment 8 by ColdFusionLazarus

When I was a kid, my older sister, who was a Jehovah's Witness said that Noah spent a long time warning people that the Flood was coming. Just recently I was informed that the bible actually says no such thing and that god had already decided to wipe all humanity off the planet (except for Noah's clan). There would be no chance to repent.

I'm also told that the koran has a version of the story similar to what my sister told me.

Are there different versions of the story in different bibles which would explain my confusion? Also, is there any sense in displaying how disgusting god is in these stories?

Fri, 01 May 2009 07:46:00 UTC | #355215

Bueller_007's Avatar Comment 9 by Bueller_007

"Noah's flood debunked".


Surely this qualifies as old news.

Fri, 01 May 2009 07:59:00 UTC | #355217

hungarianelephant's Avatar Comment 12 by hungarianelephant

CFL - The Witnesses are just making that up. There's not a single mention in Genesis 6-8 of Noah talking to anyone else about it, although presumably he tells his family given that they turn up. God just decides to be a bastard and wipe everyone out, but Noah finds favour.

The best bit is where God comes and shuts him in the Ark. Could Noah build a huge boat but not be able to close the door behind him, or what?

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:03:00 UTC | #355222

MAJORPAIN's Avatar Comment 11 by MAJORPAIN

Yes coldfusionlazarus...my grandmother told me the same thing growing up. She said Noah ran around telling everyone what god told him and she said that they all laughed at him and told him that god wouldn't do such a thing and that they (all the stupid people that Noah tried to warn) said that nothing bad would happen and they could keep misbehaving all they wanted. I think she told me this story either because she believed it really went that way or she was trying to scare me into believing that god would smite me for not being a good little girl by not wanting to go to church.

I used to think that is where a lot of these stories came from. Elders trying to scare the little ones into submission with the awesome POWER of the lord.

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:03:00 UTC | #355221

flying goose's Avatar Comment 10 by flying goose

Sorry been watching Kristin Hersh on you tube.

Noah I think arises from the story of Gilgamesh,

There is story in Greek Mythology too Zues sent so he could start humanity again.

Bonzai may well of course be right, but river floods don't usually flood the 'known' world and they regular enough to not be one offs. I still still the end of the Ice Age is as good and event as any to be a canidiate for the flood.

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:03:00 UTC | #355220

flying goose's Avatar Comment 13 by flying goose

BTW just show I am not talking complete crap, well at least not my own, here is a link to the wiki article on the dead Edit: I mean Black sea (silly daffer) deluge theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:14:00 UTC | #355229

flying goose's Avatar Comment 14 by flying goose

Cold Fusion

here is link to all the other deluge/flood myths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:17:00 UTC | #355232

ColdFusionLazarus's Avatar Comment 15 by ColdFusionLazarus

flying goose, thanks for that.

As someone who's seen a bible or two, do you know why my sister (and MAJORPAIN's grandmother) said that Noah tried to warn people?

hungarian, I had no idea god bolted the poor crew in!

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:23:00 UTC | #355235

cristinabories's Avatar Comment 16 by cristinabories

The voice sounds like Pat Condell's to me.

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:31:00 UTC | #355241

flying goose's Avatar Comment 17 by flying goose

Cold Fusion I have just reread the passage there is no mention of Noah warning people not even in the JWs New World translation.

I suspect this idea comes from the sanitisation of the story that you find in children's versions of it.

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:34:00 UTC | #355246

Pluvialis's Avatar Comment 18 by Pluvialis

Hehehe, I just love the Hovind Theory theme tune.

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:52:00 UTC | #355252

ColdFusionLazarus's Avatar Comment 19 by ColdFusionLazarus

Ahhh. Yes, flying goose, that would be it. To be honest, I was surprised, less than 6 months ago, to hear the actual brutal version of the story. If I believed in god, I would want to believe that god sent Noah to warn everyone and give them a chance. But "no". God gets angry and destroys time and time again. And strangely nothing ever gets fixed for very long.

If I got to heaven, I'd be waiting for someone to screw it all up again. Then I'd see god saying, "That's it! Everyone out. You're all going to live a miserable existence on Earth again"

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:54:00 UTC | #355254

madcap's Avatar Comment 20 by madcap

What you heathens don't understand is that this earthly realm was delivered unto Satan after the Fall. Do you not think that the Prince of Lies has the capability to change our perception of sedentary evidence in order to challenge our faith? The next flood will be with fire and brimstone, and all unbelievers will drown eternally in the Lake of Sulfur. Repent now, oh ye sinners, before it's too late!

Fri, 01 May 2009 08:59:00 UTC | #355256

flying goose's Avatar Comment 21 by flying goose

CFL

Yes but compare it with the story of Jonah where God does what you suggest.

Fri, 01 May 2009 09:14:00 UTC | #355260

gazzaofbath's Avatar Comment 22 by gazzaofbath

I know this video was 'shooting fish in a barrel' but it's still nice to see it done so completely and comprehensively. Even with a couple of tongue in cheek suggested experiments that the creationists need to do to validate their 'theory'.

A complete and utter demolition in 10 mins.

Fri, 01 May 2009 10:22:00 UTC | #355273

notsobad's Avatar Comment 23 by notsobad

Nice, but pointless.

The ignoramuses who believe in fantasy that is the Bible just don't accept facts, science and reality.

The only way to treat these cretins is ridicule.

Fri, 01 May 2009 10:22:00 UTC | #355274

brian thomson's Avatar Comment 24 by brian thomson

One theory I heard was that the Mediterranean Sea was formed in a flood, long before Noah could have been around. According to this theory, the sea broke through from the Atlantic at Gibraltar, and filled the Mediterranean Basin in a matter of days. That's testable, though obviously not by taking samples from above sea level ...

Fri, 01 May 2009 11:49:00 UTC | #355301

Sciros's Avatar Comment 25 by Sciros

stereoroid that actually describes the formation of the Black Sea, not Mediterranean. It may be the origin of so many of the flood myths. The time works out to be about right, as does proximity to contemporary civilization.

Fri, 01 May 2009 11:51:00 UTC | #355303

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 26 by Steve Zara

Comment #371996 by stereoroid

That is basically true, although the filling happened over more than just days. Also the cycle of the Mediterranean drying and filling happened many times.

I suspect, though, that the flood myth was really from some relatively minor local disaster, and nothing of global significance.

Fri, 01 May 2009 11:54:00 UTC | #355304

Rodger T's Avatar Comment 27 by Rodger T

L O L, Potholer54 pwnd those creationist bitches.

Any theories ,hypotheis, ideas on how noah got penguins, amazonian sloths,koalas and a myriad of other marsupials and species not native to the middle east on to his canoe?

Fri, 01 May 2009 11:59:00 UTC | #355306

quisquose's Avatar Comment 29 by quisquose

I am reminded of a sketch Richard Herring did on R2's That Was Then This Is Now a couple of years ago:

RICH According to the chronology of insane 17th century nutjob Archbishop James Ussher, the Great Deluge that prompted the creation of Noah’s Ark began on 25th November 2348BC. Gotta admire that specificity! Still he lived in the 17th century so maybe he can be forgiven for believing the world was created in 4004BC. What I find hard to countenance is that despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary some people still believe he was right today and I am not allowed to call them mental or ignorant for doing so, but have to respect their beliefs and their decision to live their lives based on the idea of one old book being infallibly true, even though it openly contradicts itself all the time and is at odds with all the geological, archaeological and biological evidence available to us. So I do respect that.

Well done, you people. Noah’s Ark is literally true and happened 4000 years ago, even though a 6 year old child would be able to point out a hundred reasons that it makes no sense - so let’s celebrate that trueness now in the form of a skit.


GRAMS BIBLICAL MUSIC EST AND FADE
FX BIBLICAL TIMES ATMOS UNDER.
FX THUNDERBOLT

GOD Hello.
MRS NOAH Oh hello God
GOD Is Noah around?
MRS NOAH I’ll just get him. Noah. It’s for you.
NOAH Who is it?
MRS NOAH It’s God
NOAH Oh… oh hello! What can I be doing you for?
GOD I am fed up with the wickedness of the people that I created to be wicked so I have decided to destroy them all.
NOAH That seems a bit drastic ...
MRS NOAH Yes you did such a good job creating everything ...
GOD Silence! They are rubbish and they all must perish. Except you. You’re all right.
NOAH Oh thanks. That means a lot. Especially coming from you.
GOD So I am going to send a gigantic flood to cover the world and kill everyone else.
NOAH Gosh. That seems a very elaborate way to go about things.
MRS NOAH Couldn’t you just sort of magic all the people you didn’t like dead?
NOAH Or why not just magic them so they are good....?
GOD Don’t question me. I’ve thought it all through. Only a flood will guarantee that everyone is killed.
MRS NOAH Everyone who doesn’t have access to a boat.
GOD No, cos we’re inland so no-one has a boat.
NOAH The whole world isn’t inland though is it. Some of it is by the sea and people there will have boats and survive.
GOD Er...um… I will just magic it so that they die.
MRS NOAH Can’t you do that with everyone?
GOD No ... so for you to survive you will need to build a boat.
NOAH (quietly) It seems like a lot of effort ...
GOD What?
NOAH Nothing.
GOD But a really big boat, because under the flood system I have implemented, all the innocent animals will die, so you need to go round and collect two of every species, one male, one female ...
MRS NOAH You’re sure you don’t want to rethink the flood thing.
GOD Shut up. It’s a good idea.
NOAH A lot of animals are really dangerous though – won’t they eat me?
GOD I will magic it so they don’t.
MRS NOAH Can’t you just magic it that they are temporarily aquatic or can fly?
NOAH Or that the people you don’t like die without all this flooding and boat building.
GOD I could go off you Noah. You’re just being lazy.
NOAH I’m not lazy. But building this boat and collecting all the animals. It’s a logistical nightmare. I mean most of the world is undiscovered so far and there must be loads of animals I don’t even know about ...
GOD Yes there are! Billions. And I need you to discover them, develop the technical expertise to determine a male and female of each species and bring them back here to put on the boat which you also have to build. And don’t cut corners. When you get to the Galapagos Islands for example you will find 13 essentially similar, but slightly different species of finches and you must get two of each. I created them especially to make it appear as if a thing called evolution existed, so I could test people’s faith and I will be furious if they perish.
MRS NOAH So presumably we’d better collect 2 of every race of people as well.
GOD No, just you two and your sons Shem, Ham and Japheth and their wives, from whom all future humans will be descended.
NOAH With the best will in the world God, I and all my sons are Jewish and even if their wives happen to be Chinese, African and Aborigine, which seems pretty unlikely given Jewish traditions, do you really think it’s conceivable that they will have people a multi-cultural and racially diverse world in just 4000 years?
GOD I will magic it so they do.
MRS NOAH Can’t you just magic it so ...
GOD No, I want a flood and we’re having a flood. Why are you being so prediluvian about this?
NOAH It just seems a little bit implausible and unnecessary. Can’t you come up with something a little bit more likely? Maybe it’s just a localised flood and I manage to cobble together a raft and save a dog? Then maybe anyone over 5 can believe it actually happened.
GOD You have to believe, Noah. If Father Christmas can get round to all the children of the world in a single night, then you can build an ark and collect all those animals in an hour.
NOAH An hour?
GOD Didn’t I mention that?
FX THUNDER BOLT. RAIN STARTS POURING DOWN UNDER.
MRS NOAH You’ve got to be kidding you mentalist.
GOD Right half an hour.
NOAH Oh God.
GOD That’s my name don’t wear it out.

Fx SAWING AND BANGING
FX OUT

BAND/STING That Was Then This Is Now – It’s Biblical!

RICH Take that God! I wouldn’t like to be Him once that sketch is broadcast. We got him!

Fri, 01 May 2009 12:03:00 UTC | #355308

Scot Rafkin's Avatar Comment 28 by Scot Rafkin

Rodger T,

He transported to the Middle East, as cargo, all the non-native critters in a dinosaur caravan prior to the flood, of course.

Fri, 01 May 2009 12:03:00 UTC | #355307

Palaeocystodinium's Avatar Comment 30 by Palaeocystodinium

Ten years ago, I was scientific advisor for the geological exhibit at the Norwegian Petroleum Museum. At the entrance to the exhibit, we constructed a 4.5 meter long timeline of Earth history (scale 1mm = 1 million years). After passing the timeline, visitors enter a darkened room with a 1-meter diameter spherical projection screen under a dome of stars. The sphere depicts the Earth through its 4.5 billion year history at 30 million years a second, slowing down for the last 500 million years to about 3 million years per second. Screens below the globe give details of what's happening biologically and geologically (start of oxidising atmosphere, first eucaryotes, plate collisions, Phanerozoic evolution events, mass extinctions, etc). Chronological paleo-landscape reconstructions along the walls depict the history of sedimentation on the Norwegian continental shelf, from the Devonian to the present.

The museum is located in the bible belt of this otherwise atheistic country. For this reason, the newspaper for this province printed silly anti-science letters to the editor condemming the exhibit because it gave only "the scientific view of Earth history" and made no mention of "biblical theory."

A colleague and I co-authored a reply which proved effective.

These flood people don't understand evidence, but they do understand money, - so we played the money card. We explained that oil companies are interested in finding oil and gas so that they can make a very big profit. They will use whatever idea they come across that helps to find hydrocarbons. If it makes money, they'll use it. As it turns out, the biblical "theories" don't give any returns. Flood geology models don't give source rock predictions, migration pathways, fault trends, trapping mechanisms, etc. Creation "science" doesn't produce a biostratigraphic zonation that is usable for mapping rock layers. Based on Bronze Age geological understanding, oil companies would drill only dry holes. That's why companies use real Science. It makes them profitable, and that brings income to the country so that the state can pay your pensions.

Did the creationists "buy" that explanation? For what it's worth, there was not another mention of the museum exhibit in the letters section.

Fri, 01 May 2009 12:07:00 UTC | #355311