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← Christopher Hitchens vs. John Lennox: Can Atheism Save Europe

Christopher Hitchens vs. John Lennox: Can Atheism Save Europe - Comments

Art Vandelay's Avatar Comment 1 by Art Vandelay

"Aggressive secularism"? I'm going to agggressively not kill anyone today.

-after I've finishing nastilly splitting all my infinitives down the middle...

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:24:00 UTC | #387135

Bernard Hurley's Avatar Comment 2 by Bernard Hurley

I'm going to agggressively not kill anyone today.

Oh! I do that every day six times before breakfast!

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:32:00 UTC | #387138

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 3 by Colwyn Abernathy

Oh! I do that every day six times before breakfast!

Wait...are we talking about "impossible things" now? ;P

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:33:00 UTC | #387139

Jos Gibbons's Avatar Comment 4 by Jos Gibbons

Why can no critics of secularism ever avoid equating it with atheism, ever? Also, why does everyone pretend "atheism vs everything else" = "atheism vs Christianity"? As if Christianity's standing is self-evidently better than, say, Islam or Babylonian mythology. Such arrogance really astounds me.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:33:00 UTC | #387140

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 5 by Styrer-

Well, now I can relax and watch, knowing that both Richard and Paula are on the case!

(I do hope my eyes have not deceived me!)


Sean Tyrer

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:35:00 UTC | #387141

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 6 by Colwyn Abernathy


Can Atheism Save Europe?

Couldn't hoit!

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:37:00 UTC | #387142

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 7 by Colwyn Abernathy


The blanket statement, "Religion poisons everything," followed by a litany of the evils of religion is about as useful as saying "Science poisons everything," followed by a littany of the evils of science, like poisoning the environment and creating napalm.

Non-sequitur, red herring. The process of science is not a system of values like religion is. It is the process by which we discover what is or what is not. The discovery of napalm, weapons, poisons, biological agents of destruction, etc. are not "evil" in and of themselves. It is how they are put to use. Finding out that they exist is neither good nor evil.

You fail.


Also, the rest of that gibberish about Jesus abhoring violence:

"I come not to bring peace but a sword."

Fail Squared

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:13:00 UTC | #387154

God fearing Atheist's Avatar Comment 8 by God fearing Atheist

5. #404625 by Styrer-

Yep, thought a camera shot lingered on a Richard look alike in the audience. Was it the Prof.?

I am tempted to rip Lennox apart sentence by sentence, but I haven't got a week, one point however about "dancing to genes"

There is this thief who winds up in court. "My genes maye me do it m'lord, please let me off"

The judges genes have produced a thinking machine. He thinks "If I let this thief off he may steal something from me, and then I won't be able to give it to my precious little granddaughter, who carries my genes*".

He says "The intelligent machine that your genes produced is going to have to learn that to accomplish its task it is going to have to stop thieving. I'm giving five years to encourage you to lean, and even if you don't you are out of my reproduction space for a while"

Role on evolutionary biology, evolutionary psychology, game theory, computer modelling of the above, and dare I say it (Lennox oh no!), mathematical theory of the afore mentioned.

I suspect "morality" is just the game we play.

*Actually the judge is being paid a fat salary, that the whole population contribute to, in order to stop theives diminishing the reproductive wealth of the population, but that is too complex for my story.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:18:00 UTC | #387157

Thurston's Avatar Comment 9 by Thurston

I was at this debate in Edinburgh last year. It's a shame that Hitchens lost the motion and that the questions are not shown (there were one or two great ones I remember, not to mention the odd crazy one), but all in all it was a good debate.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:24:00 UTC | #387158

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 10 by Colwyn Abernathy


What can I say? People gotta have a gris-gris. I have faith, however, that we WILL grow up and put away our childish things.

It's the growing up that's the hard part. We so much want to be cared for, caring for ourselves seems to much a chore.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:58:00 UTC | #387166

v4ri4bl3's Avatar Comment 11 by v4ri4bl3

"Sense can not come from nonsense."

I think this is an excellent description of the usefulness of John Lennox's entire speech. It is ironic he used it as supposed evidence for his God.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:09:00 UTC | #387167

andersemil's Avatar Comment 12 by andersemil

There is not a trace of logic in anything John Lennox says. It's absolute nonsense and contradictions end to end. It's really tragic to see how much attention people can still attract simply by letting out hot air about a hot topic

Btw, that most definitely looks like Prof. Dawkins in part 2, 7:47

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:31:00 UTC | #387171

Bad Bishop's Avatar Comment 13 by Bad Bishop

"Fixed Point"

What a perfect name for a religious thinktank.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:33:00 UTC | #387172

PoliticallyConcerned's Avatar Comment 14 by PoliticallyConcerned

Videos got removed by user. Anyone got an alternate link?

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:36:00 UTC | #387175

Christian Tellefsen's Avatar Comment 15 by Christian Tellefsen

Oh no, it disappeared when I was right in the middle of it!

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:43:00 UTC | #387177

Adrian Bartholomew's Avatar Comment 16 by Adrian Bartholomew

I wish Lennox wouldn’t keep calling himself a Scientist. He ISN’T! He’s a freakin’ mathematician. I’ve a degree in maths by the way and the one thing I can tell you is that the biggest idiots I’ve ever met in my life were during my degree course at university. The mathematical methodology makes mathematicians immune to physical evidence because you never need it in maths. Since the discipline is all in the mind (ok on paper or PC) they seem to think that you can argue for physical things entirely in the mind without reference to the REAL world. It drove me batty back then and if Lennox is anything to go by they haven’t changed much since. Common sense and mathematical ability seem to be inversely correlated.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:44:00 UTC | #387180

redeyejedi's Avatar Comment 17 by redeyejedi

video has been removed by user. i hope that there is another link to it somewhere because I was really into that....

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:45:00 UTC | #387181

Rodger T's Avatar Comment 18 by Rodger T

It appears to me that Lennox is terrified that there is nothing after death.
If this is true,does it follow (?) that there is life before birth (for the soul that is)?
Repeating tired old canard after canard,ie;Pol pot, Stalin ,Hitler etc, proves nothing.
Lennox ignores the salient fact that Galileo,Kepler,Newton and Copernicus et al like Bruno would have all been put to death for suggesting that god did not exist.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:48:00 UTC | #387182

Lyonel.Nichols's Avatar Comment 20 by Lyonel.Nichols

Same here, I was just working on it when they deleted it. No other links that I have found as of yet.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:49:00 UTC | #387184

Melomel's Avatar Comment 19 by Melomel

The youtube user, "hitchenschannel," has the following comment on their page:

"Copyright Infringement Copyright Infringement

I want to congratulate you on your enthusiasm and willingness to think through and address some very important issues.

However, I wanted to bring a matter to your attention that you may not be aware of, and that is that the debate footage between Christopher Hitchens and John Lennox that took place at the 2008 Edinburgh Festival ("Can Atheism Save Europe?") is copyrighted with all right reserved to Fixed Point Foundation. Indeed, the footage should not generally accessible anywhere else but through our own site. With this in mind, we would like to politely ask you to remove the videos/audio of that discussion that you currently have posted immediately."

The Christian Apologist group who sponsored the talk, the Fixed Point Foundation, sells a DVD on their web site. L. Ron Hubbard would be proud.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:49:00 UTC | #387183

redeyejedi's Avatar Comment 21 by redeyejedi

If you go to, you can buy a DVD of the if I would give them my money. I am so disappointed. I didn't get to hear any of Lennox's responses.

^insert frowny face^

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:57:00 UTC | #387189

Mayhemm's Avatar Comment 22 by Mayhemm

Disappointing. This couldn't have been available for much more than a few hours.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:00:00 UTC | #387191

Rodger T's Avatar Comment 23 by Rodger T

Oh well,got to see the first 5 installments ,Hitchens excellent as usual.

So ,can atheism save Europe?
Or the planet?

BTW, what did christ say to the pilot? Never got to hear Lennox`s punchline.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:01:00 UTC | #387192

Friend Giskard's Avatar Comment 24 by Friend Giskard

The direct download links will probably still be active. Unfortunately I just scrubbed my browser history after using them, so I can't post them here. If anybody else downloaded the videos before watching them they may be able dig around and find the links and post them here.

I suppose I could upload the vids to youtube but I've got other stuff to do. EDIT : Now that I think of it, I don't think you can upload flv to youtube anyhow.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:05:00 UTC | #387196

Am I Evil?'s Avatar Comment 25 by Am I Evil?

Comment 404642 by Thurston:

I was there as well, the questions should have been included. And don't worry about the motion being lost, I had no end of theists sitting around me.

Looks like they've pulled the plug on the video though. Bugger. Won't buy it.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:16:00 UTC | #387201

RPizzle's Avatar Comment 26 by RPizzle

Damn getting my hopes up only for it to be dashed. *sigh* Hopefully, it will turn up somewhere.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:40:00 UTC | #387211

j.mills's Avatar Comment 27 by j.mills

"Can atheism save Europe?" I don't even understand the question. "Can vegetables underscore education?" Beggared if I'm buying the DVD to find out!

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:44:00 UTC | #387213

LaurieB's Avatar Comment 28 by LaurieB

Sorry to be off topic here but I thought I'd let everyone know that Sam Harris will be a guest on Bill Maher's show this Friday night at 10:00 pm on HBO.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:17:00 UTC | #387226

dalk mattel's Avatar Comment 29 by dalk mattel

"This movie has been removed by the user"


Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:26:00 UTC | #387231

ravish's Avatar Comment 30 by ravish

:( yeah, video deleted, Christopher should start his own site like Prof. Dawkins. Esp as he goes into religious communities for this debates who want to package and sell this stuff themselves. It is important that he has a proper website now.

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:29:00 UTC | #387233