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'Friends of God' Documentary - Comments

EndlessForms's Avatar Comment 1 by EndlessForms

I think I'm going to be sick...

edit:

Ok, so I will grant the mother one thing: It is probably a bit easier to teach children creationism. You don't have to use your mind to think it out, you simply accept it. Like Santa and other fantasy ideas. But please, give the children a little credit; not only do I think they could understand science and appreciate it's beauty, but I've seen people simultaneously believe in God at the same time! What a feat of mental prowess! I think what they're afraid of, is science getting rid of all the easy reasons to believe in a god. And maybe that the hard reasons will, if they think hard enough, turn out to be vacuous. Hmm, ok so science may be a little destructive to religion (thank goodness!).

I'm still all choked up at watching all those kids... all the beautiful discoveries they're missing out on...

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:26:00 UTC | #17830

scottishgeologist's Avatar Comment 2 by scottishgeologist

YouTube vid has been pulled, but the onegoodmove video is still there.

This is grim.

Actually its easy for people of reason to dismiss this stuff. Its patently obvious that it is a load of tosh. And what is going on is brain washing.

What I would really like to know is why certain other evangelicals ALSO reject it - you know the ones that are into "theistic evolution" Day Age theory, Gap theory and all these things that they try to do to make the bible fit in with the obvious facts of science...

Most evangelicals claim to be be "bible believers", so does Ken Ham. So why is he wrong? Whats wrong with YEC?

These guys are all reading the same "Word of God" arent they?

I would argue that if you take a fundamentalist approach (and I dont mean that in a peremptory way) then these YEC guys HAVE to be right.

Either YEC is wrong, OEC is wrong, or atheism is wrong - they cant ALL be right.

Some of the fallings-out and aggro that you get among different Christian groups on this question can rival anything you'll see here! It's quite amusing to watch.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:36:00 UTC | #17833

AtheistJunkie's Avatar Comment 3 by AtheistJunkie

And so the cycle of ignorance continues.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:58:00 UTC | #17835

smartypants's Avatar Comment 4 by smartypants

Watching this I'm glad I live in Europe...

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:59:00 UTC | #17836

Quine's Avatar Comment 5 by Quine

I first saw these people covered in the great WGBH Evolution seven-part project. (see http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/ and http://www.current.org/prog/prog0111evol.html
especially the religion part http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/religion/faith/index.html )

There is a part in it where some students from a Christian college are taken out to an actual dinosaur dig where they can see the bones in the layers of the earth, and see that those bones had to have been there for millions of years. They also saw that the other students, preping to be scientists, were very excited and happy about making these discoveries. The impact of this on the Christian students gave me hope that truth will not be held back.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:04:00 UTC | #17838

mintcheerios's Avatar Comment 6 by mintcheerios

How is this not child abuse?

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:48:00 UTC | #17841

Grandt's Avatar Comment 7 by Grandt

Schools should start teaching the children in the basic scientific principles first and early on, teaching them what the terms really mean, how to use them, and to work with the ideas of how to prove and disprove hypothesis and theories. And how to recognize pseudo-science.
Then they can use those scientific principles to teach just why Evolution is a fact.

In my mind the primary problem with these people are that they are confusing true science with fiction.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:08:00 UTC | #17845

tall penguin's Avatar Comment 8 by tall penguin

Ha, that song rocks!

This reminded me of all the stomach churning stuff in the documentary, "The Jesus Camp". I fear for these children.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:08:00 UTC | #17846

StephenH's Avatar Comment 10 by StephenH

I felt so uncomfortable watching that first video, i'm just speechless !!

I wonder how we manage to live in a system where these deluded people manage to get jobs teaching children

I certainly agree, what was shown there, was a mental form of child abuse. They are too young to reason out a complex debate (Evolution v Creationism)

They are getting a very scewed story from the preachers, without anyone there to represent the argument from a pro-Evolution stance

Attempted indoctrination of young innocent minds
Just awful

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:20:00 UTC | #17851

bruce's Avatar Comment 9 by bruce

Hey, let's try to find a silver lining here. Every society needs its mindless authority obeying grunts to do its dirty work. I figure by the time these kids graduate from high school, President Jeb Bush will be able to use them as cannon fodder in Gulf War III.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:20:00 UTC | #17850

denoir's Avatar Comment 11 by denoir

Really disturbing. I usually think that it is amusing to hear creationists - a sort of circus attraction. There is however nothing remotely amusing in that first clip.

Such blatant and systematic indoctrination of children is really abuse - at least abuse of power on the part of the parents that put their children through such a thing.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:22:00 UTC | #17852

RickM's Avatar Comment 12 by RickM

Well, folks. Welcome to the Dark Ages Version 2.0.

Wonder what the kids would say if they were asked what causes lightning?

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:59:00 UTC | #17856

Frostbit's Avatar Comment 13 by Frostbit

I can't watch that foolishness.

That gets me way to upset!

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:14:00 UTC | #17858

Sancus's Avatar Comment 14 by Sancus

I hope videos like these show atheists that any pedagogy based on trust is wrong. Education must follow from experience or it is bereft of learning, much less a foundation for a life of learning.

Who should you trust first, God or the scientists?

Neither! Ask for the evidence.

I fear for children in conventional non-religious schools the same way I fear for them here.

Goodness, I fear for the people in colleges who are taught without experience. They're the victims of a scam and many will spend decades paying for it.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:06:00 UTC | #17863

Mango's Avatar Comment 15 by Mango

The theists teach their children young what the "truth" is so that by the time they open a high-school level science book they are unprepared to accept reality as presented by secular scientists. It's their strategy -- there's no other reason for them to be indoctrinating their children so stridently against evolution.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:20:00 UTC | #17866

bornabaptist's Avatar Comment 16 by bornabaptist

Sad, not surprising. It takes years to overcome this early age brainwashing by parents and authority figures. We are going to need a lot of money to fight this filth. Dig deep, donate. Send a book to a theist, email the video links, articles, etc... to local private religious schools, city, state and federal representatives, friends, relatives. Inundate theist's lives with science and reason.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:54:00 UTC | #17871

harryh28's Avatar Comment 17 by harryh28

Ted must have been really geting off when he was having gay sex forbidden by his delusional religion and taking crystal meth while he had all his idiots fooled he was some kind of morality figure.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:12:00 UTC | #17875

denoir's Avatar Comment 18 by denoir

Sancus:

Neither! Ask for the evidence.

I fear for children in conventional non-religious schools the same way I fear for them here.

Goodness, I fear for the people in colleges who are taught without experience. They're the victims of a scam and many will spend decades paying for it.


No, ask for methodology. Are you sceptical about quantum electrodynamics (QED)? Do you distrust it because you haven't seen first hand evidence? To get some experience you would need to build a particle accelerator. Suppose they let you borrow one. How would you know they are not trying to trick you? If you dismiss trust at all levels, you would have to build one yourself. From scratch. And not using any existing components as it would require implicit trust of those that built the components.

In short, there is no practical way for you to find out for yourself. You can more or less say the same thing about any technology and science that has been developed after the stone age.

Ask for evidence? Ask a bible thumper and I'll guarantee you that they'll list loads of evidence in favour of their view. How do you know who's evidence to trust?

I'll tell you why I believe in QED. At the university I attended a couple of courses in quantum mechanics where QED was covered. I put my trust in that the lecturer wasn't trying to deceive me. I believe that the alleged empirical evidence isn't faked. Why? What is the difference between trusting the lecturer and trusting a priest?

The scientific method. For the good professor to lie and make things up there would have to be a grand conspiracy of scientist worldwide to deceive people about their methodology. In my judgement that is highly unlikely.

The priest on the other hand relies on one single book. That book makes grand practical predictions and claims that are in many cases contradictory. It doesn't take much analysis to conclude that the book being wrong is not an impossibility. And there is no systematic error correction mechanism. Simply put, the methodology is rotten.

So how do I evaluate evolution vs. creationism. We can rule out the conspiracy idea - that either side is engaged in a massive campaign to intentionally and knowingly deceive people. I judge it to be infinitesimally unlikely. My first level of implicit trust is that I believe that the scientists (on average) are using the scientific method and the priests are using their holy texts (on average). All things being equal, which system is most likely to be vulnerable to error? Is it the one that is based on a distributed system of thousands of experiments or one based on a book written around the first century AD? Given the severe logical inconsistencies of the latter and that it is one single source, I'd put my money on the former.

In any way, trust is necessary. It is just a question of choosing who to trust. And this is more a question of rational analysis than of empirical testing.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:27:00 UTC | #17878

raptur's Avatar Comment 19 by raptur

Comment #19917 by denoir on January 30, 2007 at 4:27 pm
"Is it the one that is based on a distributed system of thousands of experiments or one based on a book written around the first century AD?"

Actually, if you say this evangelicals will likely respond that the Bible was written over the course of two thousand years which is actually correct. However, if they're from the Wheaton sort of camp, they will also probably attempt to tell you that it has all sorts of confirmed prophecies and extra-biblical corroboration, and also that apparent contradictions resolve themselves on further examination. These claims fail in the critical places, but it takes some degree of familiarity with the texts to counter them.

What astonishes me is that I learned about all these claims and their supposed justification over the course of a private evangelical christian education from 7th through 12th grade (in the states). As a high-schooler I was able to connect the dots to the conclusion that the Bible is simply a very complicated and interesting cultural text. They have all this information as well (considering I got it from them), and the fact that they maintain their position in the face of it just shows that this is all dogma and not evidence-based science.

Although this conclusion is hardly news. Especially to this crowd.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:30:00 UTC | #17901

JD Holding's Avatar Comment 20 by JD Holding

You know, all the surveys I've read say the best sex comes from male prostitutes... after you finish shooting up together, of course.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:39:00 UTC | #17903

a tree with roots's Avatar Comment 21 by a tree with roots

"God said it, I believe it, that settles it!" Yeah, that settles it alright...
I never get so disgusted with creationists than when I see them confuse children so severely with their lies. It saddens me. What's more, they'd probably say the very same thing about kids being taught evolution. Sigh.

And that one guy who wants to win a Nobel Prize made me laugh. Hey, he can try if he wants...

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:17:00 UTC | #17913

Aussie's Avatar Comment 22 by Aussie

Isn't it reassuring to know that the next generation of leaders in the most powerful nation on earth are being so well informed so early in their lives. This bodes well for "God's Own Country" retaining its pre-eminent position as the most scientifically and technologically advanced civilisation that the world has ever known.

God Help America! - the laughing stock of the rest of the world. How did this sad country ever put men on the moon? Why did I never see this side of the USA in my many visits over several decades. This country is rotting from the inside out. Why is the USA the only country so fatally afflicted?

As Sam Harris says the combination of great stupidity and great power is extremely dangerous. Hold on to your hats.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:11:00 UTC | #17922

Munger's Avatar Comment 23 by Munger

The first clip is nothing more than cult brainwashing at work. You need only watch it for a few minutes to see the method. Find impressionable minds. Repeat your message over and over again in catchphrase fashion. Use seemingly logical arguments ("Your grandfather didn't look like a monkey!"), and teach them early on to ignore any ideas which contradict this brainwashing.

It's worked for thousands years.

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:52:00 UTC | #17925

yokebutt's Avatar Comment 24 by yokebutt

Us atheists do have a problem, we can't issue fatwas.

As for the second video, hmm--- every day? Must be some grim boinking indeed after a couple of years.

And finally, the "she climaxes every time" comment; like so many men, these guys won't really know their wives until they divorce.

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:21:00 UTC | #17930

Will S's Avatar Comment 25 by Will S

One of the things which this disgusting video illustrates is a point which RD has made several times: 'reasonable' religious people assist the extremists.

For the propagandist could work on the assumption that his wretched little victims had already been taught that there was something 'special' about the Bible; that it's not book like any other book, but the word of God. Had he not been able to do that, he's have got nowhere.

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:16:00 UTC | #17953

linck's Avatar Comment 26 by linck

"It's just easy to explain to your children."

Yes, I totally agree with the creationist Mom on that one.
12 lousy years of school, more years of university, uncounted money for books - and still I cannot explain the whole universe.

It is just easier to stick to one book.
"God did it!" - any 3 year old can understand it and knows the meaning of the universe.
Hallelujah!

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 07:42:00 UTC | #18013

Lionel A's Avatar Comment 27 by Lionel A

Frightening stuff.

At least the outfit's title 'Answers in Genisis' is a little more honest than 'Truth in Science' who should be prosecuted for fraud, until one considers the deception of their answers.

Did that talking hay stack (5.26 clip 1) know even what time of day it was?

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:15:00 UTC | #18017

scot's Avatar Comment 28 by scot

God Help America! - the laughing stock of the rest of the world. How did this sad country ever put men on the moon? Why did I never see this side of the USA in my many visits over several decades. This country is rotting from the inside out. Why is the USA the only country so fatally afflicted?

Aussie,

The reason you never saw this side of the USA is because it isn't very apparent in most parts of the country and my experience has been that most people in America think these extremists are nuts and recognize the brainwashing. As an American living overseas it makes me cringe to hear statements like this because they are so onesided. Keep in mind that Separation of church and state are a reality in America, unlike some other countries where children have to excuse themselves if they don't want to sit through religion class. America has it's problems but it isn't rotting and it doesn't need God's help.

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:50:00 UTC | #18027

Proud Okie Atheist's Avatar Comment 29 by Proud Okie Atheist

But they do try to wedge this kind of "learning" into the mainstream. Especially around here...

http://wms.scripps.com/KJRH-TV/29/06pm.wmv

At about 2:00 minutes into this newscast, the story starts about actually putting bible teaching into public schools near here. There are more fundie churches here than you can shake a stick at, not to mention bible colleges! It is very frightening.

Scot is correct in that we have The Establishment Clause (separation of church and state) as part of the first amendment's protections. But even that is under attack and even totally ignored by the Bush administration.

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:29:00 UTC | #18059

cheshirecat's Avatar Comment 30 by cheshirecat

You have to laugh.....

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:39:00 UTC | #18061