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← A Religious Military? Spiritual Fitness Test or Rationality Fitness Test?

A Religious Military? Spiritual Fitness Test or Rationality Fitness Test? - Comments

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 1 by Neodarwinian

More push ups, less prayer, keeps our military fit. KP for life for those who wast our time and money on this spiritual fitness test!

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 00:09:10 UTC | #947136

xsjadolateralus's Avatar Comment 2 by xsjadolateralus

They are getting desperate. Making people admit to being religious, or flunk out. Only a matter of time before they apply this to the school system. Oh, the future, we thought you would be so much brighter!?!

Why do they want the military to be entirely religious? Hmmmff...

MAYBE because they want to use the US military to strong arm non believers?

Why is the idea that they would preach their faith with a gun barrel so hard to imagine?

It's their tradition, after all. Never forget. :)

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:08:54 UTC | #947142

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 3 by mordacious1

Well spoken, as usual. Good point about Nidal Malik Hasan probably acing the spiritual fitness test before he started gunning down his fellow soldiers.

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:15:06 UTC | #947143

drumdaddy's Avatar Comment 4 by drumdaddy

Religion has metastasized throughout the military and the government. Radiation is indicated.

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:34:34 UTC | #947144

djames's Avatar Comment 5 by djames

When I was young and dumb with the rank of E-3, I had no clue how to respond to training we were required to take. We had to report to the base chapel where we were given core training. Core training for the Navy was the standards of Honor, Courage, and Commitment. When the base chaplain gave his presentation, he stated that the belief in Darwin's theory was not in the core values we needed. I asked about evidence including Lucy. I was told she was a normal human suffering from rickets and malnutrition and further more I really needed to search for and find god. Everyone agreed and I felt truly betrayed by my leadership. I did not have god so I had no honor, no courage, and I could not be counted on to commit. It really felt like I was alone and did not belong. I did have the core values needed because I honorably served for 20 years fighting multiple wars and conflicts even if I did not agree with all of them. All of this could have been changed by one preacher with rank and an agenda. But he pissed me off and I showed my courage. This is the 21st century this has to stop. I did not need god then and I don't think young military personal need god forced on them now.

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:50:39 UTC | #947170

Rosbif's Avatar Comment 6 by Rosbif

This is like the "new" stress test my doctor performed on me.

"It's new and from America" the deluded doc proclaimed. 20 questions about my life style like one of those ladies' magazine questionnaires; points off for going to the pub, points added for eating fruit etc ... but nearly 50% of points were awarded to going to church. Needless to say, I failed.

I tried to explain that I was far more likely to be stressed if I went to a church and lived first hand the lies, indoctrination and abuse but I'm officially a risk for stress according to my work record ... because I don't fit the ideal of a test used by the employment doc.

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:00:44 UTC | #947177

SaganTheCat's Avatar Comment 7 by SaganTheCat

only in america do you have to convince someone you answer to the voice in your head before they'll let you loose with a firearm

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:15:40 UTC | #947180

capetownian's Avatar Comment 8 by capetownian

How come this doesn't get into main stream media? Why aren't Editors raising the issue of the separation of church and state as written in the Constitution? Why does this not get taken to the highest Courts in the USA? Words fail me....If the challenge of evolution and creation has already been settled in Court when raised by the the fundies at school level, why can't this bullshit be challenged...? I am not a local; living on the other side of the world, so I apologise if I don't fully understand the implications.

Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:55:09 UTC | #947201

Roedy's Avatar Comment 9 by Roedy

Why does the military want Christians?

  1. they are happier to kill Muslims.

  2. they believe that killed people don't stay dead, so it is not such a big deal to kill someone.

  3. they believe they will be rewarded after death for killing. Therefore they are willing to take bigger risks. This is just a lighter version of the 77 virgins.

  4. they agree with the consensus that gay people are the proper targets for hazing.

Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:26:39 UTC | #947470

Roedy's Avatar Comment 10 by Roedy

Two more reasons the military wants Christians:

  1. Christians have been trained all their lives not to question authority. That transfers to the military hierarchy.

  2. Christians are proven gullible boobs. They will believe any nonsense the military chooses to tell them without questioning it.

Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:33:12 UTC | #947474

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 11 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 9 by Roedy

Why does the military want Christians?

they are happier to kill Muslims.

they believe that killed people don't stay dead, so it is not such a big deal to kill someone.

they believe they will be rewarded after death for killing. Therefore they are willing to take bigger risks. This is just a lighter version of the 77 virgins.

they agree with the consensus that gay people are the proper targets for hazing.

What a load of ignorant tosh.

Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:59:06 UTC | #947483

scottburdick's Avatar Comment 12 by scottburdick

Excellent speech, Sean! I think a rationality fitness test would be great -- especially if administered to those seeking public office.

Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:57:10 UTC | #947725

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 13 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Sun, 17 Jun 2012 09:15:52 UTC | #947737

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 14 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Sun, 17 Jun 2012 09:35:52 UTC | #947738

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 15 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:58:25 UTC | #947743

mmurray's Avatar Comment 16 by mmurray

Dammit. I think me and Muscardinus avellanarius got sock puppeted. Is that a verb ?

Michael

Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:46:52 UTC | #947746

Corylus's Avatar Comment 17 by Corylus

Comment 16 by mmurray :

Dammit. I think me and Muscardinus avellanarius got sock puppeted. Is that a verb ?

Michael

Dunno - it was a very unpleasant comment though. Sigh, threads about the military seem to bring out those with empathy bypasses.

Members of the military are just like the rest of us - some nicer than others: all with a range of reasons for actions.

Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:33:01 UTC | #947752

All About Meme's Avatar Comment 18 by All About Meme

If religion poisons everything, as Christopher Hitchens observed, then it follows that religion is poisoning the military.

If a United States soldier was only willing to risk death for his country because of his/her belief in God and the rewards of heaven, I wonder if Hitchens would consider that soldier unfit for duty.

In some sense, every Christian soldier fails the rationality test.

These are sensitive, emotionally-charged topics, and I for one am very glad we have people like Sean Faircloth, Justin Griffith, and Mikey Weinstein to help navigate this minefield.

Sun, 17 Jun 2012 19:22:21 UTC | #947756

Alpha-Bass-Tard's Avatar Comment 19 by Alpha-Bass-Tard

Firstly, I'd like to say I became 87 percent Atheist, with the remaining 13 percent leaning still toward Agnosticism, after reading Blue Apples by William Henry, I believe. I had read "The God Delusion" before that. William Henry is a..., well, he believes in Trans-dimensional Stargates, we'll say, to keep it light., but the book is filled with a very detailed, wonderfully phonetic and linguistical analysis, and an accurate representation of religion, its roles and undeniable connections throughout world history. Now, this man says we should respect people in uniform; why? That is about as credulous as respecting a priest because he claims he knows god. If you mean respect them by standing up for their belief or un-beleif, that's fin, but then it should apply to them whether they're in uniform or not. The Military should respect the citizens of this country then they will receive it in return, just as anyone should, whether they're in uniform or not. He also cites The Constitution; I think it negates a secular standpoint to make things up like this; it's just not in there. The application of The Constitution has been used, and taken precedent in American Court, but it still is not there, that I'm aware. A better document, I'm told, is The Bill of Rights. Ultimately, none of these items mean anything in the long run of History; they are always changing. Look at Parliament in England, for example. I do not disagree, however, that this Militarily "litmus test" is about as ridiculous as only allowing people to vote who's Grandparent's had voted in a prior election. It just seems quite a farce and a ruse to grapple our attentions, when we ought to be more focused what the Military is being expended for. Don't get me wrong; I agree the test is ridiculous. "True magic is about controversy; that's real Slight of Hand..." -- Undisclosed

Mon, 18 Jun 2012 05:51:41 UTC | #947766

Alpha-Bass-Tard's Avatar Comment 20 by Alpha-Bass-Tard

What does "KP" stand for? It's "72" virgins. What could the moderator have removed that was more offensive than "sock-puppeted?" What's that mean? Again, not in The Constitution... Actually, The Bible was originally taught in American schools; in fact, it was the core-curriculum, superseding all other topics, often being the only book available in many schools. Sorry, I was unable for some reason to comment on specific comments within the thread so, I put them alll her for you to ponder and/or ignore/respond to vehemently and/or otherwise.

Mon, 18 Jun 2012 06:07:43 UTC | #947768

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 21 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:06:38 UTC | #947816

Foxhole Atheist's Avatar Comment 22 by Foxhole Atheist

Comment 17 by Corylus :

Comment 16 by mmurray :

Dammit. I think me and Muscardinus avellanarius got sock puppeted. Is that a verb ?

Michael

Dunno - it was a very unpleasant comment though. Sigh, threads about the military seem to bring out those with empathy bypasses. Members of the military are just like the rest of us - some nicer than others: all with a range of reasons for actions.

Corylus,

Thank you! I dislike having super patriots being the only ones who stick up for us.

Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:24:30 UTC | #947836

Zeuglodon's Avatar Comment 23 by Zeuglodon

"Spiritual fitness test"? More like atheist detection and "correction" scheme. What is being measured isn't "spirituality" (good luck getting a sensible description of that), it's "How traditionally Christian you are." It's blatantly discriminatory for no justifiable reason, imposed by people who don't even see how wrong they are and who can't seem to leave even the military recruits alone to do their jobs. Hats off to Sean Faircloth for exposing this scandal.

Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:31:21 UTC | #947856

Corylus's Avatar Comment 24 by Corylus

Comment 22 by Foxhole Atheist :

Thank you! I dislike having super patriots being the only ones who stick up for us.

You are quite welcome :)

Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:10:40 UTC | #947869

Hearthammer's Avatar Comment 25 by Hearthammer

Comment 6 by Rosbif :

This is like the "new" stress test my doctor performed on me.

"It's new and from America" the deluded doc proclaimed. 20 questions about my life style like one of those ladies' magazine questionnaires; points off for going to the pub, points added for eating fruit etc ... but nearly 50% of points were awarded to going to church. Needless to say, I failed.

I tried to explain that I was far more likely to be stressed if I went to a church and lived first hand the lies, indoctrination and abuse but I'm officially a risk for stress according to my work record ... because I don't fit the ideal of a test used by the employment doc.

It kinda reminds me of my psychology finals paper.

"Psychometric testing is not harmful, merely trivial. - Discuss."

Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:33:07 UTC | #948044

followmyleader 's Avatar Comment 26 by followmyleader

Very nice speech, but the probability of a given American serving in the military is overwhelmingly determined by his or her economic class, and his or her family members' prior military service. And what that means, in trems you can take to the bank, is that kids from the former Confederacy serve in proportionally higher numbers than kids from the former Union States. The decidedly poorer quality of education in the defeated Southern states contributes to this over-representation. So it's hardly astonishing that the military pulls hard on the teat of "God" in its effort to orient and motivate its recruits. Not a lot of them had read Braudel.

If you don't spend all your online time on the Dawkins site, then you may know that Israel is considering yanking the military exemption from the Ultra Orthodox, the worst religious parisites on earth. David Ben Gurion accommodated them because he assumed that they would die out in a generation. In the United States, we have almost the opposite problem. The brainwashed Christian teenagers go out and fight these brainless and immoral wars against defenseless but equally brainwashed Muslims, while we cool-minded seculars go shopping and pretend that we care.

Imaginary solution, as every proposed solution is:

Make military service compulsory, period. "Tiitle 9" may get your daughter killed. No deferrments. If you're a C4 quad, we'll find something you can do with your mind. If you have Down's Syndome, we'll harness your good nature and brave love of life. If you're in a coma, we'll dress you in a uniform and count your days of service. To borrow from the cheesy film adaptation of Robert A. Heinlein's "Starship Troopers," "Everyone fights. Nobody quits" No one is allowed to slink off, like our former President Shrub. If this were our national policy, how often would be deploying troops overseas?

Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:53:34 UTC | #948975

SonofHades's Avatar Comment 27 by SonofHades

Indoctrinating military personnel with Christianity seems pretty absurd when you consider all that "turn the other cheek" and peace-loving guff - but then Christianity is whatever Christians want it to be, isn't it? And many Americans want it to be less about Christ and more about insanity. One wonders what Thomas Jefferson would think of this seeing as he wrote that he regarded even military chaplains as being unconstitutional.

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:40:26 UTC | #949619

Enkidu90046's Avatar Comment 28 by Enkidu90046

I think there are more atheist members of the military than you might realize. Back in January of 1994, I joined the United States Marine Corps, not as an officer, but in the enlisted ranks (despite my college education). I, like every other Marine, had to complete basic training. USMC basic training is very unlike boot camp in the other branches and Marine Drill Instructors are renowned for their in-your-face, high-stress methods of making basic Marines. They are often much-feared, particularly during your first weeks in boot camp.

I am (and was) a Jewish Atheist. At some point, probably the first Sunday of boot camp, we were asked for our religious preferences. We had one Muslim Marine, one Buddhist Marine, one Jewish Atheist Marine (me), and the rest either Catholic or Protestant. We were basically told that we would attend some form of religious services. I objected, which, you must understand is not something you are encouraged to do in USMC boot camp.

I was punished by being forced to stand at attention for the entirety of that first Sunday while various groups headed out for services. I endured, but at the first opportunity requested to speak with the senior drill instructor (the punishment was handed out by one of the assistant DIs). I told him that I refused to be singled out for punishment because of my lack of religious belief and that I would endure anything that the USMC asked of me, but if this continued, I would make sure to "request mast" to go to the next level of the chain of command.

From that point onward, I was no longer forced to either go to religious services or be punished. Basically, I got all of Sunday to myself (mostly spent polishing, studying, cleaning my gear, working out, etc.) Soon after, about a half dozen or so other Marines began to choose not to attend services either.

There were actually no repercussions from my act of disobedience other than on the first day. I was rapidly promoted to being a squad leader and later. During the course of boot camp, on more than one occasion when I was alone in the presence of one or more DI (including the one who had punished me) they actually talked to me like a human being and, amazingly enough, asked my advice on getting through to some of the slower Marines. Following boot camp, I had an opportunity to run into the senior DI and we had breakfast together. He, a devout Catholic told me how much respect he and the other DIs had for me because I was unafraid to stand up for my beliefs (or lack thereof). I am sure that the fact that I was a damned good Marine helped me, but it is amazing how all it takes is one voice to speak up and you will find kindred spirits and even admiration among those who don't share your skepticism.

On a side note, when I was a squad leader, I got wind of the fact that several marines planned to give the slowest Marine there (who was always getting us in trouble) a "blanket party." Interestingly, this slow Marine was the most devoutly religious Marine I remember at boot camp. Nothing the DIs did seemed to shape him up. All the would-be members of the "blanket party" (save one) were also part of the religious Marines. Yet I, the atheist Marine, was the one who stood up to them and told them that if they were going to harm the slow Marine, they would have to get past me first (I was soon joined by several other Marines, both religious and non-religious, who agreed to stand guard over the would-be victim).

But I guess I wouldn't be able to pass the spiritual fitness test of today's military. That is sad.

Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:26:32 UTC | #951083